"Very Difficult Choice" Mod, irc channel: irc.quakenet.org/vdc

[Catalyst_Kh]

It could be useful to try to separate criterias (by editing saves in progress maybe), to see which economy parameters are taken into account. Who knows, it could be only one parameter. Maybe pop amount only, when other parameters could be completely ignored, or maybe different criterias calculated with different share of influence. I would guess it is based either on "history graph" summary directly, either on current game score itself. Those two seems the most logical.

[Overlord2]

It could be useful to try to separate criterias (by editing saves in progress maybe), to see which economy parameters are taken into account. Who knows, it could be only one parameter. Maybe pop amount only, when other parameters could be completely ignored, or maybe different criterias calculated with different share of influence. I would guess it is based either on "history graph" summary directly, either on current game score itself. Those two seems the most logical.

Better not to make guesses but look the code directly

[Catalyst_Kh]

At advanced start Antarans fleet showed up this way:
1) 1 destroyer at 11 turn with eta 3;
2) 1 destroyer at 15 turn with eta 2;
3) 1 destroyer at 16 turn with eta 3;
4) 1 destroyer at 18 turn with eta 5;
5) 1 destroyer at 20 turn with eta 4;
6) 2 destroyer at 21 turn with eta 2;
7) 3 destroyer at 22 turn with eta 4;
8 ) 3 battleships at move 36 with eta 2;

Never played advanced setup before, but looks too harsh.

[angra]

Looks like I set the rate of growth of antarans resources too high, will have to decrease it. And also prewarp start needs a little more delay.

No, please, no. This mod is for experienced players. In previous patch antarans attacks were devastating and there were 50+ stasis ships with true juggernaut of destruction at Antares itself. And it was still possible to win. Damn, even AI could survive this. Current antarans are like kids compared to the previous version, why make them even weaker? In any case antarans are for single player only and there should be some challenge for players who want it. For those who don't want it there is option at game start to turn off antarans completely.

[Catalyst_Kh]

Interesting point Angra. In previous version it is possible to continue development, continuously building again all destroyed planets from scratch, even if Antarans wipe out your planets every 5 turns. In big enough galaxy it will work. When you finally finish all tech and Antarans attacks will grow to somewhere 50 doomstars each 5 turns by then, it is still beatable, fleet can be slowly accumulated anyway, but this is so long and frustrating game, do you really like it this way?

[Semmelbaecker]

On a different manner: In my last game, the AI got the Ion Pulse cannon. The description says, that the ion pulse cannnon can not be build in heavy mount. And if you design a ship, the Hv option is not there. However, the starbases of the AI are equipped with HV ion Pulse cannons. And they immobalized all BB it encountered (i guess 7 to 8 in all fights together) with the first hit. I had no shields by then.

That seems to me vastly overpowered, especially because I used missile BB who were supposed to jump out after their first salvo. Its extremely frustrating to loose your ships on a regular basis due to such a bug. Is there anything you can do, Irakly?

Cheers,
Semmel

[angra]

I've played previous version in small galaxy, pre-warp using lucky pick. Antarans attacks started at 70 turn and lasted for 9 or 10 turns. One AI was eliminated completely and two(or three) were doomed by losing their homeworlds. I've lost one planet. At 191 turn I've defeated Antares with 5 doomstars and 15 titans. This game was funny, not so long and not frustrating (even first attempt to attack Antares when my 5 doom stars were obliterated in few turns just because of stasis)

Yes, new version looks better then previous. I like it more and do not complain about antarans in it. But I do not want to see further decrease in antarans power because of somebody lost just one game to them. I've lost my first game to antarans in previous version too but this just made me rethink my strategy. It is nice when you have to change your singleplayer strategy after 10+ years of playing same game.

[Darza]

Heavy ion cannons was installed on starbases long ago, Simtex forgot to fix it after they removed Hv option from usual mount. It helps starbases alittle, and generally anything what help it to actually have a chance to do something in battle is strongly encouraged, so no real point to remove it.

Ha, cheap using a pick Lucky, evalued at cost of one pick for games without random events or antarans, its a really nice "change of strategy", lol. Tell you one thing, if youll try to play with humans, you'd had to really rethink your "10 years old strategy of same game", just cheap exploit of one pick wouldnt be enough. At least if antarans actually attack at t70 at small - then you just can win the game before initial attack even happen.

[Catalyst_Kh]

Looks like breaking both arms of a boxer and then complaining, that you was given very weak boxing partner. Try to win Antarans, starting with 7 impossible AI opponents at small galaxy without lucky and without telepathic picks, then you may brag about. And not 1 on 1 in huge galaxy, having so many planets, that you can forget about antarans at all, not even fighting them before you have "10 doomstars".

[angra]

Ha, cheap using a pick Lucky, evalued at cost of one pick for games without random events or antarans, its a really nice "change of strategy", lol.

If you think that cost of "lucky" pick is not adequate then you can suggest to change it. But before this change happens use of "lucky" is in no way more cheap than using any other pick.
BTW, I've described only my last game because i still have save of it before last attack, so I could provide exact turn and fleet strength. I've managed to survive antarans attack in some other games without "lucky". But playing without it is too luck(not pick) dependent, cause you can be target of all 10 attacks or none of them. I do not like to be too luck-dependent.

Tell you one thing, if youll try to play with humans, you'd had to really rethink your "10 years old strategy of same game"

Word "singleplayer" was added for such "smart" people. Looks like I have overestimated somebody's intellect, I should at least make this word bold or even repeat it several times.
Singleplayer and multiplayer are separate skills, you can be good in one and not so good in the other. Yes, this even means that somebody can be good in multi but not in single.
I personally is not interested in MOO multiplayer at all. It just takes too much time. In single I can stop game at any moment and return to work or family, doing this in multi is very bad tone. I can switch between singleplayer MOO and work/family dozen times per day and I do not have to wait for AI opponents to be ready, they are always available.

At least if antarans actually attack at t70 at small - then you just can win the game before initial attack even happen.

Please show me how you can win pre-warp at 70th turn by defeating Antares.
Oh, wait, let me guess - you are talking about cheap win by destroying all AI's opponents or even by council election?

Try to win Antarans, starting with 7 impossible AI opponents. And not 1 on 1

More opponents - less chance of antarans will go for your planets. Surprise? And of course we are talking about "impossible".

without lucky and without telepathic picks

Maybe I should just select worst picks and skip turns untill antarans or AI attacks? Will it be enough? Or do you really think that it is not possible to win without lucky and telepathic picks? Most valuable pick against antarans is "creative" it would be very hard to defeat Antares without it.

[Darza]

Of course beeing good in multiplayer is also mean be good at singleplpayer, tho, surely, some people who effective in multiplayer can be ignorant about some good single strategies. Being rather good in both, tho, i can speak on this certain subject well.

About lucky - again, it was valued for a multiplayer, when nobody cared about single in this mod at all. Ofc if you plan to actually play it in a singleplayer with random events and antarans it cannot have same cost as fantastic traders.

ofc you cant win at t70 by defeating antares, even in classic moo2, but, if you will just capture every AI player "in a cheap way" pre-70, leaving one or 2 Ai inhabited planets to just stay in game - you will defeat antares way faster this way, if you want to add some challenge and actually do so, ofc. Personally i killed antares few times when i was kid, and now interested only in speedruns.

About impossible - recently i had to play few games on hard, and was slightly surprised what actually AI level on hard drop not so crucially from impossible - both are equally weak and no bother, so "impossible" looks overestimated.

And ofc you can play anyway you like, antiraces is a real source of joy in moo2, coz its too easy game if played correct. And yes, creative just hurt you against antatans, so you play this sorta race already i guess, so not bad challenge.

[Catalyst_Kh]

I've managed to survive antarans attack in some other games without "lucky"

It is very easy to survive in “some other” games. But if you claim that you want(like?) a real challenge, then why you are avoiding it?

But playing without it is too luck(not pick) dependent, cause you can be target of all 10 attacks or none of them. I do not like to be too luck-dependent.

There is no luck factor here, all that is completely in your hands. How much Antarans will attack your and how much AI opponents, it is all managable by your play.

I personally is not interested in MOO multiplayer at all. It just takes too much time. In single I can stop game at any moment and return to work or family, doing this in multi is very bad tone. I can switch between singleplayer MOO and work/family dozen times per day and I do not have to wait for AI opponents to be ready, they are always available.

Once I played several games with my friend at email basis. He wrote script that automatically put save game from moo2 folder to email and sending it to me (and backwards as well), I did it with two bat files, but sent emails manually (took some seconds each time). So we played multiplayer separately in time, sending mails after “next turn” and receiving “next turns” later. We played only 5-15 turns per day, but it was very convenient and took not much time, with all benefits you just described. So if you afraid of real challenge, you don't need any excuses, just enjoy this great game the way you like and don't judge others.

More opponents - less chance of antarans will go for your planets. Surprise? And of course we are talking about "impossible".

If you think so, why you are not using them “as a shield” then?

Maybe I should just select worst picks and skip turns untill antarans or AI attacks? Will it be enough? Or do you really think that it is not possible to win without lucky and telepathic picks? Most valuable pick against antarans is "creative" it would be very hard to defeat Antares without it.

I just told you in previous post, what would be enough, have you enough creativity to beat that?

[Darza]

Well, actually luck factor is main factor in a game, you cant fully manipulate it, tho if you will "perform poor" in way game see it, you will surely reduce possibilty of antarans attack, bad random events, and increase a chance for good ones, and leaders. And ofc you can even "cheat" a game by making it think what you are bad, while you doing fine, but you still dont have it in your hands fully.

Play by email, uh. Did you played without tactical combat? I just never played this way and wonder how its actually perfromed. Or AI just fight a battle for you both? Well, in later case its equal to no tactical combat option.

And really, join a chat, man.

[Catalyst_Kh]

About impossible - recently i had to play few games on hard, and was slightly surprised what actually AI level on hard drop not so crucially from impossible - both are equally weak and no bother, so "impossible" looks overestimated.

That is undoubtedly true for normal conditions, but the point is the following:
1) extra racial picks for AI by impossible makes them faster to start activities at first stage;
2) having improved AI ship designs (and starbase designs) from VDC mod prohibits you from complete freerolling at AI (as in regular moo2);
3) having 7 AI at close range around your start don't let you to grab half the galaxy before first Antaran comes.

In this scenario it is already a decent Antarans challenge for casual players and old game fans. At least I, personally, didn't found a way to conquer all AI fast enough in such circumstances, so I had to complete that conquering already under Antarans constant assault. I even lost several games before I found couple of winning strategies. So, if you will show me the way how all 7 AI could be tamed before 70 move (in setup stated above) I will be really surprised. And please don't compare that to multiplayer challenge, because Antarans never was any strong in regular moo2 and now it is a new fun singleplayer challenge to have.

Well, actually luck factor is main factor in a game, you cant fully manipulate it, tho if you will "perform poor" in way game see it, you will surely reduce possibilty of antarans attack, bad random events, and increase a chance for good ones, and leaders. And ofc you can even "cheat" a game by making it think what you are bad, while you doing fine, but you still dont have it in your hands fully.

True, I exaggerated it of course, but the level of your own control on that is much bigger than random luck, and one or two casual Antarans attacks (from 20) will not spoil this scenario. It is purely singleplayer perk though, and not much interesting way to play of course, I just pointed out the possibility.

Play by email, uh. Did you played without tactical combat?

Of course with tactical. We made phone arrangements to go online both, when complex and unclear combat arose. It was very fun to make that combat and discussing it at the phone right away, there was no skype back then, so it was surely a joy to play like that. Actually, at least half tactical battles were quite straightforward, and there was nothing to hide from each other in combat, so we just played it in hotseat, moving fleets for both players during the combat. But not taking any peek at opponents empire of course, just moving in tactical combat. When, for example, his 5 battleships were attacking my weak defense and I just received the next turn, where he lost 1 battleship, killing all my forces, I played that combat myself for both sides and just got agreed, that I can't kill more, so there was no need to replay that. Anyway, multiplayer over internet is purely a trust thing, because anyone can tweak saves and even just peek at opponents empire during autosave of the ongoing game. So, once you trust, you can afford your opponent to judge where he won't start a tactical combat without you or he will. In dubious situations we asked each other permission to do so, of course. Maybe it looks lame for you, but it was still much better, then not playing a multiplayer at all, because of been not able to be online for long or prearranged (which is true for most game fans).

I just never played this way and wonder how its actually perfromed.

Apart from playing so few turns per day it performed very well and didn't consumed any additional time.

[Catalyst_Kh]

Actually, today it is even easier. You may place open dosbox window with moo2 anywhere at any virtual OS in the net, opened 24/7 with network game in progress. And just access it remotely anytime from any place (with any computer or smartphone, been in other city, etc) to make a move, while your opponent(s) will do the same with their own separate window. Each player at different time, when it is convenient for him/her. So, no emailing or scripting ever needed, plus no additional time to launch the game or playing hotseat tactical combats. And you may drop your move unfinished and go away anytime, if needed, it will not be lost with lost connection, rebooting of your "current" computer, or anything like that.

EDIT: plus benefits of skype.