"Very Difficult Choice" Mod, irc channel: irc.quakenet.org/vdc

[Overlord2]

I got prorgress in comprehension of antaran's function, so next time it won't be so weird.

[Qalen]

Hey. Although I haven't posted anything here yet, keep up the good work. I just registered to say that.

There are still a lot of people out there playing MoO II!

thank you so much

[Overlord2]

Hi,
Thanks for high appraisal of my work. I hope I can do more in future.

As for now I finally updated antarans (43c update), should look OK now. Please check and report.

[Semmelbaecker]

Hi Overlord #2

I played a view games and I must say, the Antarans are quite challenging now. I havnt seen doomstars yet, but getting attacked on successive turns is hard. Is the time antarans attack adjusted to the starting age? I am used to do pr-warp starts and by turn 100, I got 3 attacks, 1 Frigate, 2 and one turn after that 3 frigats. The 2 frigats destroyd my 3 Destroyers due to a lack of good armor. The 3 frigats then hosed my homeworld. Maybe I was a bit greedy when researching, in the beginning, I did not really have much to defend with but Merkulit rockets, I went for deuterium fuel cells.

Also I dont really get how espionage works right now. I am playing large, prewarp, impossible, 6 players. I had the psilons right next to me. They had no espionage bonus, I was Unification and -10 Espionage. The moment I met them, I build 2 defending spies and I already researched telepathic training. The psilons got every 2-3 turns a technology from me. They were also teching much faster then me with 1/2 of the population and no research bonus.
That really got me thinking because they also stole research lab and supercomputer... How can they tech so fast without having key technologies and how did they manage to spy my technologies so effectively?
Unfortunately, I played without report, so I wasnt able to see their technology

[Overlord2]

Hi,

Antarans attack delay on prewarp is set to t80. Usually they don't attack first two cycles, so add 10 more turns. Then they should attack about every 5 turns.

The formula for espionage is as follows:

The exact spying formula (1.31 & 1.40).

Before roll for the spying there is roll on assasination of spies. Got no information on that formula. As for the spying chance the formula is the following:
Random attack (0-100) + all offensive bonuses - [Random defense (0-100)+all defensive bonuses]>60 spying is successful; >80 spying is successful and you frame other race; >90 some diplomatic action follows, don't remeber;
For Sabotage formula is the same with the exception that figures are different - 70 and 90.
All offensive/defensive bonuses include all techs as they are, race bonuses, leaders and bonuses from the spies.
The exact bonuses of the spies are available in the following table:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key ... utput=html

In VDC I increased chances of spying by reducing the required difference.
Also note that if random attack hits 100 it will steal no matter the defense is. So there are positive chances of stealing even in the worst cases.

Addition on spies. From my personal experience I have a feeling that marine barracks help vs spies: spying often happens when you colonize new system, but haven't yet built marine barracks there.

About AI - well it gets significant bonus on everything, including research (up to +60% on impossible), so no suprise.

[Semmelbaecker]

I played an other game. Same race, and I had a good start. However, I have no luck defending against the antarans. A battleship of theirs destroys my battleship (with zortrium armor) in 80% of the cases with its first shot. If it doesnt get destroyed by this, its destroyed by their fighters which house me pretty good. Any idea what I do wrong? I tried beam weapons or mass drivers, all either dont hit or are too weak. A starbase is pretty much useless against antarans, the only hope is that they shoot at the fighters which gives the starbase the chance of shooting salves of rockets. Merkulitrockets seem to be effective against antarans below battleships.

Attack pattern (prewarp start):
turn / fleet / turns until hit
86 / 1F / 4T
91 / 3F / 1T
93 / 3F / 6T
96 / 3F / 3T (same colony, cant defent, colony destroyd. Got 5 out of 6 friggats because they were shooting at fighters)
106 / ? / ? (did not attack me)
108 / 1D+2F / 6T (got them with my battleship, zortrium armor, MIRV merkulits)
111 / 1S / 5T (destroyd my homeworld, with defending 1 battleship, 2 destroyers, 2 friggats, starbase, fightergarision)

I have the feeling the only way if surviving is to pump out colony ships and hope they dont attack your importent planets. If i dedicate all my ressources into defending against them, the battleship gets me no matter what I do. After that, I am so weak that the computer tends to be unstoppable. (the elarianer got around 15 systems by turn 130)

[Catalyst_Kh]

Congratulations Irakly! Very nice Antarans activity now, cheerful test game I just played. Once again a new challenge for many Orion fans.

---------

Semmelbaecker, there are many ways to counter Antarans, It should be interesting for you to try to invent something yourself, before looking for ready solutions. Still, if you need one, below are two ways which I just tryied (paragraphs are readable after text selection).

You may get better initiative before Antarans got nasty by researching best computers, faster engines and (if that is not enough) building “smaller” ships, even with some empty space if needed. Thus you will be able to shoot at Antarans first at least with a batch of “smaller” ships, if not with BBs. This way you need no shields and no armor. You can gain extra initiative by building empty hulls very early plus space academies at each planet in home system, so their crew will grow to veterans quite fast. Been warlord, or +25 attack, or charismatic (to get leaders with good +weaponary and +tactics) will also helps (but not necessarily). Battlestation gives extra bonus too, if you have enough time to push for doomstars (or you are creative). So, if you sum all that up – it will be enough initiative to overcome Antarans (assuming you are developing your empire fast enough to meet Antarans rising conditions).

Or instead of initiative you may just push Force fields research to get Flux shield early on, and then Barrier shield later, if needed. This way your planetary installations will be able to hold up long enough to shoot a batch of Antarans ships without help of your fleet. Good weapons and armor needed of course.

This both are temporal measures, but it will buy you plenty of time to complete expansion/development and then build substantial fleet of titans/doomstars.

[Overlord2]

I don't understand the abreviation 1S - is it a cruiser (BB)? and 5T is time for arrival? If so then you were hit at 116 with antaran BB...rather early I guess, I was counting on other time. 130-140 would be OK to defend from antaran cruiser (BB).

Attack pattern (prewarp start):
turn / fleet / turns until hit
86 / 1F / 4T
91 / 3F / 1T
93 / 3F / 6T
96 / 3F / 3T (same colony, cant defent, colony destroyd. Got 5 out of 6 friggats because they were shooting at fighters)
106 / ? / ? (did not attack me)
108 / 1D+2F / 6T (got them with my battleship, zortrium armor, MIRV merkulits)
111 / 1S / 5T (destroyd my homeworld, with defending 1 battleship, 2 destroyers, 2 friggats, starbase, fightergarision)

Looks like I set the rate of growth of antarans resources too high, will have to decrease it. And also prewarp start needs a little more delay.

@Catalyst_Kh
Thanks! Still not perfect, but moving in this direction

[Semmelbaecker]

Ohh yes, S means BB, sorry, I was thinking in German (S = Schlachtschiff) there. Antarans skipped cruiser completely.
Also, Im not complaining, it just seems to me that despite my best effords, I cant seem to defend against them. I guess my standard opening (Research lab, Auto Factories, Cloning Center, Colony Ships, Planetary Supercomputer, zortrium armor, weapons ...) does not contain enough military techs to hold against antarans. In the game I reported, I added mass drivers after Supercomputer to make my fighters more effective, but that only works against antaran friggats though.

@Catalyst_Kh: As you can see, my problems with the antarans begin far earlier than I can research good drives or good computer components. I guess, I can adjust my build order.

So my experience is mainly from playing against a friend in multiplayer where you definetly have lots of time early on to develop your race before starting with research techs. With the antarans in the game, it becomes a very very different game. I like that! So Irakly (= Overlord2?), please dont make them too easy based on my experience. I am not as good as you in MoO2, so dont take me as reference!

Cheers,
Semmel

[Catalyst_Kh]

Thanks! Still not perfect, but moving in this direction

Do you think it would be interesting, if i disclosed the most easier (or better say bugged and boring) way at once?

I also countered Antarans with the following setup, it is the most lame, but very fun to see it still worked well: I started +50 Defense, Warlord and left 2 race picks unused to be able to take trans dimensional at mutation. Antarans frigates have “only” 190 beam attack, plus range to hit penalty, while with only internal stabilizers and ion drives my DDs had 220 beam defense very early in the game, so Antarans frigates was just missing too much and was unable to blow up DD with one hit (due to IV shields plus armor). I was able to reach nullifiers in time, and my DDs became almost untouchable by Antarans beam weapons later.

If so then you were hit at 116 with antaran BB...rather early I guess, I was counting on other time. 130-140 would be OK to defend from antaran cruiser (BB).
Looks like I set the rate of growth of antarans resources too high, will have to decrease it. And also prewarp start needs a little more delay.

Those early BBs looked odd at first, but in all games they were anxious to shoot at planet or starbase, so my ships with destabilizers was killing it in one turn with no good computers, armor or shields. Too odd anyway. In one of games I was hit by Antarans titan at move 130 (approx), at avarage start. That was really hard to hold, but still it didn't shoot the fleet at first move. It would be perfect, if it was possible to adjust something, so Antarans would shoot the defending fleet first, that would be a greater challenge.

[Catalyst_Kh]

I guess, I can adjust my build order.

Or you may adjust your race picks.

[Overlord2]

@Catalyst
I wasn't considering uber-defense races when modifying antarans. Any average race should be able to cope it, but 116 for antaran BB is too early. Just some 10 turns later it would be OK.

About AI combat actions - I can't mod it for the moment. When it becomes possible I will see what I can do there, so far no information on it.

@Semmel

my experience is mainly from playing against a friend in multiplayer where you definetly have lots of time early on to develop your race before starting with research techs. With the antarans in the game, it becomes a very very different game. I like that! So Irakly (= Overlord2?), please dont make them too easy based on my experience. I am not as good as you in MoO2, so dont take me as reference!

You supplied the valuable information, which is sufficient to make the appropriate decision. Lazy to test it myself Anyway, the change will be very little, but pinpoint.

[Catalyst_Kh]

Any average race should be able to cope it

In normal conditions it is. But it was much more fun for me to recall old times and play singleplayer with 7 impossible AI opponents in small/medium galaxy, as they are slowing you down by endless attacks and don't let to expand too early. Under such conditions not every race setup can develop (or conquer) fast enough to be able to meet Antarans with enough force in time. Especially once I started in the center, having tolerant warlord Sakkra and another +75 attack fella within 6 parsecs both, it was tough massacre. So, very good job with Antarans, thank you once more.

[Catalyst_Kh]

Anyway, the change will be very little, but pinpoint.

In prewrap game Antarans titan with 2 battleships attacked at move 131 (jumped out with eta 3 at 128 move), the same ~130 as with avarage start, while first waves started later as intended. Very odd.

[Overlord2]

Anyway, the change will be very little, but pinpoint.

In prewrap game Antarans titan with 2 battleships attacked at move 131 (jumped out with eta 3 at 128 move), the same ~130 as with avarage start, while first waves started later as intended. Very odd.

Hmm, it depends on your performance too. There is one more antaran function, which determines the production capacity of antarans and is based on assessing player's economy. Very complicated function and the guy who is helping me couldn't understand it to the end. But I see that resource growth curve is rather steep. I will make the necessary changes this weekend.