"Very Difficult Choice" Mod, irc channel: irc.quakenet.org/vdc

[Overlord2]

Would it be hard to reprogram Low-G World pick to have only 15-20% penalty for normal gravity? Current 25% is weakening too much, even with -11 pick cost. Like you changed 50% science penalty to 30% with Feudal due to same considerations. What do you think* about that?

Reducing LowG penalty to 20% wouldn't be a problem. I will look into it.

And then High-G Worlds have the same problem, seems it costs too much for what it gives. May be it would be more reasonable to lower the pick's cost to 2 or 3? Because now I can't see any race, who can benefit from spending 4 picks on High-G, instead of more useful 4 picks investment.

Well, I disagree about usefullness of this pick. It has two aspects - one eco and second military. On regular mapgen with many urich hvgs this pick is even OP atm, while on GM2 map it is less usefull, but still. Rather to say mapgenerator places few HVGs, when this pick is activated, not sure why though. Looks like it's a problem of the mapgen itself. However military advantage of this pick never depreciated. You can pick Ground Batteries without suffering gc disadvantage or increased gc bonus is certainly an advantage. You may say it is comparable with +20 gc bonus, which costs 3 points.

And about Omniscient pick, it became 3 times cheaper, than in 1.31&1.40 version, is it really justified? Many races can just drop 100% pop growth to 80% to release 2 picks for Omniscient, or sacrifice only Large HW to have it. Both variations have very tiny affect on race's growth speed, but gives so big strategical advantage so cheaply. Do you think it is balanced like that? Seems like 3 picks for Omniscient should be more challenging, what do you think?

Well, Omni is banned from start in MP games. It is meant purely for mutation. If omni cost 3 points you couldn't add anything worthwhile on remaining 2 points. Hence the cost of omni was downed to 2.

[Catalyst_Kh]

Thank you very much Irakly. Very exhaustive explanations, now it is clear to me. Completely missed that Ground Batteries issue (as missed that word *think* ), the same is true for Gravity Generator, which could be skipped as well. Those both definitely adds fair +1 to this pick. Well, if Onmi is taken only at mutation, that is perfect then.

[Overlord2]

About HVG - there are combos that make hvg pick effective, so why were you asking about lessenning this pick?
Examples of HVG races:
#1 dict, sub, +60 pop, +2 food, +2 prod, hvg, large hw, rich hw;
#2 dict, sub, +80 pop, +1 food, +2 prod, hvg, large hw, rich hw;
#3 dict, sub, +100 pop, +1 food, +2 prod, hvg, rich hw;
#4 dict, sub, +100 pop, +2 prod, hvg, large hw, rich hw, cybernetic.

[Catalyst_Kh]

You guessed right, why I asked – there is indeed some problems with map generations, especially with gm2. Thus, after I tried to compare several races at early stage of development, it appeared to me, that spending 4 picks for H-G World benefits only with large amount of monsters, plus i blundered that military addition.

[Catalyst_Kh]

Irakly, I just read about very interesting MadViper's idea of different stars density in the galaxy at map generation. Very nice idea, but little uncomfortable (and for many even not possible) to edit exe(s) each time to bring changes, and reedit those with each update. Would it be hard to encode it as additional starting parameter? For example: /stars=X key, like existing /planets=X. So, if /stars is omitted or set to 0 it will use defaults for each galaxy size, but if player set, for example, /stars=40, than player will get 40 systems when starting new game, regardless of galaxy size. So, the player(server) can set small galaxy, and it will have those 40 systems in it, it is silly setup, but if player wants to, why not? Or player may choose huge galaxy size, and it still will have 40 systems as well. Someone may like only 25 stars per huge galaxy as well.

Imagine how handy it will be, easily setting different values from game to game by just editing starting string or just launching different shortcuts/bat-files/symlinks. In the same large galaxy, it will not ruin MP game balance (unless too extreme value), but will alter strategy decisions in interesting ways, which MadViper described. Should be very refreshing.

[Overlord2]

Coding conditions will be very difficult job, it is not what I am up to. What I could do is include Mad Viper's change for medium map - increase map size to huge? with number of stars same as medium universe. While for large number of stars there is already a modification - it is called cluster. It puts same number of stars on large map as in huge.

Btw, there is a way to get rid of hvgs under monsters. In mapgen program supplied with the installation package there is a special command for it '-mmonst'. Not only it improves gravity, but changes bad climates to tundra.

[angra]

If you do not like word "Bug" then maybe information about how AI get additional bonuses on hard/impossible can be added as "Note".
One more note. When you attack antaran homeworkd their starfortress has -28k hp and in result is annihilated after any damage or on start of its first turn. And antaran ship there have mere 1000/1000 hp and low firepower. A bit disappointing after uber Guardian.

[Catalyst_Kh]

Mapgen is very useful tool, but can't change the density of stars. If making an additional changed exe is not a problem, then maybe your idea would be more convenient in this way: including second altered version of each exe (vdcreg,vdcgm2,vdcor) into the mod archive, when in altered versions all galaxy sizes will be altered. For example, picking small galaxy will result in 36 stars in large galaxy, medium will result in 45 stars in large galaxy, large will result in 36 stars in huge galaxy, cluster will result in 45 stars in huge, and huge will be 54 stars in huge. Or any other numbers, which you see more appropriate. The point is, why have only one altered “medium”, if you may have five altered options at once, besides there are players who like to play in normal medium or small. So, this way it seems more convenient to me. In other words, if I wasn't able to patch exe myself, I would love to have such altered versions with five new options.

[Overlord2]

If you do not like word "Bug" then maybe information about how AI get additional bonuses on hard/impossible can be added as "Note".

This information is about inherent properties of the game, I'm not supposed to run game wiki...If I made the change, I'd make a reference, but this issue isn't priority atm.

One more note. When you attack antaran homeworkd their starfortress has -28k hp and in result is annihilated after any damage or on start of its first turn. And antaran ship there have mere 1000/1000 hp and low firepower. A bit disappointing after uber Guardian.

Thanks for reporting bug, I will try to fix it. Also will look into defending antaran fleet.

[Overlord2]

Mapgen is very useful tool, but can't change the density of stars. If making an additional changed exe is not a problem, then maybe your idea would be more convenient in this way: including second altered version of each exe (vdcreg,vdcgm2,vdcor) into the mod archive, when in altered versions all galaxy sizes will be altered. For example, picking small galaxy will result in 36 stars in large galaxy, medium will result in 45 stars in large galaxy, large will result in 36 stars in huge galaxy, cluster will result in 45 stars in huge, and huge will be 54 stars in huge. Or any other numbers, which you see more appropriate. The point is, why have only one altered “medium”, if you may have five altered options at once, besides there are players who like to play in normal medium or small. So, this way it seems more convenient to me. In other words, if I wasn't able to patch exe myself, I would love to have such altered versions with five new options.

This is a lot of work , for MP games is not needed such a large number of settings. Besides if you play with AI then Cluster map (72 stars in large) could be more than satisfactory. I thought you were looking for a map with low density, which is only available in Mad Viper's setting atm. I could add it or something similar to VDC. I am afraid this is all I could do in this regard. I have a lot higher-priority issues to solve concerning the game.

[Catalyst_Kh]

Thank you for explanations. I am interested only in mp games. I played several years ago a little, with friends mostly, and now want to play some more. The point is, I dont very like 36 stars for huge, but something within 43-55 maybe, and maybe 35-45 for large, didn't tried to patch myself yet. But of course better spend your time for more prior changes, I just thought it will not consume a lot of time if you already knew the offsets for mod exe(s), sorry.

[Catalyst_Kh]

Just patched vdcgm2.exe according to that instruction, tried different values, not only MadViper's variation, to see the difference. Seems working ok. If there is no problem with other offsets, then where is the problem? What will consume a lot of time? Maybe I can help with something. Probably to tune settings for less flawed generation is the challenge.

[Overlord2]

The point is, I dont very like 36 stars for huge...

You mean Viper's modification?
I don't understand the issue completely, what density doesn't fit your purposes...you say you want 55 for huge and 45 for large? Currently for large is 54, not a big difference with 45.

I just thought it will not consume a lot of time if you already knew the offsets for mod exe(s)

I saw them, but didn't study. Will have to carry out all the tests to learn how they work.
Anyway, I am ok to do it for one type of the map, i.e. medium. Please select the number of stars and size of universe wisely - the setting which will be played the mostly. Don't want to spend efforts on something, which won't be used.
And I don't feel like adding 3 more exe's to the package - it will be hard to manage them in future.

[Catalyst_Kh]

Thank you Irakly, I patched myself already, but if you would tell me how to change the amount of stars I will be the most thankful to you. I only can change the galaxy size without any limitations, but the quantity of stars seems fixed, depending on size of the galaxy, chosen when creating the game. That fixed quantity of stars just stretching (or compressing) to fit the “new” galaxy size. So I am down to only three fixed options: 36 stars in large, 36 stars in huge and 54 stars in huge. Still better than nothing though.

If there is no way to manually set the number of stars, then maybe it would be nice to make a little patcher, which will just patch all three vdc mod starting files (as those have identical code in that offset area), setting each galaxy size as “+1” with the same amount of stars, so it will be “stretched galaxy” version. As I can see huge galaxy is not the limit of the size, so it can be set even bigger , supporting this altered version idea. And this patch can be applied to each new version of mod files, so there is no need to manage that in future. I strongly believe there will be interest for many players, like compressed huge to large (cluster), but in opposite direction. If you like the idea I would try to tune bigger version of huge and then post you offsets to change, so you need only to place the change list into patch program, for making altered exes anytime.

EDIT:
The idea to make even bigger huge failed – there is just no support for next zoom level, while the galaxy itself could be generated “beyond the borders” with no problems. So if you are interested, offsets for patcher are:

• x1125BE FA-->F7
  x1125BE 01-->02
  x1125C7 90-->58
  x1125C8 01-->02
  x1125D0 0A-->0F
  x1125D9 0A-->0F
  x1125E2 00-->01
  x1125EB 00-->01
  x1125F5 F7-->F4
  x1125F6 02-->03
  x1125FE 58-->20
  x1125FF 02-->03
  x112607 0F-->14
  x112610 0F-->14
  x112619 01-->02
  x112622 01-->02
  x11262C F4-->EE
  x11262D 03-->05
  x112635 58-->B0
  x112636 03-->04
  x11263E 14-->1E
  x112647 14-->1E
  x112650 02-->03
  x112659 02-->03

Those making small galaxies stretched to medium, medium stretched to large and large stretched to huge (opposite to cluster). And huge remained as default. Also Orion2v140.exe, orange.exe and all goodmap#.exe could be patched. User can rename patched versions if you include the patcher itself, or you may include only patched altered exe's themselves, as you like.

[Overlord2]

Thank you Irakly, I patched myself already, but if you would tell me how to change the amount of stars I will be the most thankful to you.

Looks like it spawns 18 stars multiplied by size factor. Someone should look for number 18 in mapgen process, I guess.

I only can change the galaxy size without any limitations, but the quantity of stars seems fixed, depending on size of the galaxy, chosen when creating the game. That fixed quantity of stars just stretching (or compressing) to fit the “new” galaxy size. So I am down to only three fixed options: 36 stars in large, 36 stars in huge and 54 stars in huge. Still better than nothing though.

36 in large and 54 in huge makes sense. You hit optimal numbers by rule of thumb me thinks.

If there is no way to manually set the number of stars, then maybe it would be nice to make a little patcher, which will just patch all three vdc mod starting files (as those have identical code in that offset area), setting each galaxy size as “+1” with the same amount of stars, so it will be “stretched galaxy” version..... So if you are interested, offsets for patcher are:

• x1125BE FA-->F7
  x1125BE 01-->02
  x1125C7 90-->58
  x1125C8 01-->02
  x1125D0 0A-->0F
  x1125D9 0A-->0F
  x1125E2 00-->01
  x1125EB 00-->01
  x1125F5 F7-->F4
  x1125F6 02-->03
  x1125FE 58-->20
  x1125FF 02-->03
  x112607 0F-->14
  x112610 0F-->14
  x112619 01-->02
  x112622 01-->02
  x11262C F4-->EE
  x11262D 03-->05
  x112635 58-->B0
  x112636 03-->04
  x11263E 14-->1E
  x112647 14-->1E
  x112650 02-->03
  x112659 02-->03

Those making small galaxies stretched to medium, medium stretched to large and large stretched to huge (opposite to cluster). And huge remained as default. Also Orion2v140.exe, orange.exe and all goodmap#.exe could be patched. User can rename patched versions if you include the patcher itself, or you may include only patched altered exe's themselves, as you like.

Understood. I'll see what I can do with the executables. In the worst case I'll include patcher for each exe.