"Very Difficult Choice" Mod, irc channel: irc.quakenet.org/vdc

[Overlord2]

Could you please elaborate Artemis System Net mechanic?

"New damage ranges from 3 to 43 mines; Each mine inflicts 105 points of damage (plus ESD) lessened by the shield or damper field; Chances to hit were revised too: frigate - 10%; destroyer - 20%; cruiser - 30%; battleship-50%; titan-70%; doomstar - 100%"

Let's take batlleship without shields/dumper. Does it means that it has 50% chance to avoid damage completely and if failed will receive (3+rnd(40))*105*2 damage? Or 50% is not evasion chance but chance to hit for each mine, so damage will be rnd(43/2)*105*2?

50% is evasion chance. If it hits, min 3 mines will hit. As for extra structural damage [ESD], any damage which affects armor is doubled on structure. It's not just x2 damage.

Btw, VDC44 is uploaded. Edit: psionics got wrong tech description, reuploaded.

[Catalyst_Kh]

Is 3 to 43 random distribution linear? Or smoothed or squared in some way?

[Overlord2]

I don't know what kind of random generator uses moo2 engine. Probably the one with even distribution.

[Catalyst_Kh]

The game surely uses only one random generation function all over the code, the question is about which formula is attached to produced random number for each particular event. For example, for artemis specifically it could be:
number of mines to hit = 3 + random (0-1) * 40 (linear)
number of mines to hit = 3 + 2 * (random (0-1) *20) (squared)
number of mines to hit = 3 * (1 + random (0-1) * 13,33) (cubic)
It also could be with additional shifting of average distribution point below or above the even half (23) (for any non linear function).

[Catalyst_Kh]

Thus, for example, for cubic funtcion you will very rare get numbers below 10 or above 36, while for linear any number from 3 to 43 is equally possible to hit.

[angra]

As for extra structural damage [ESD], any damage which affects armor is doubled on structure. It's not just x2 damage.

I know but without shield and in case of armor<=structure we can simplify it to just x2 damage

Btw, VDC44 is uploaded.

Could you please in future provide changelog as separate link to .txt or at least add changelog from previous major version in first post?

[Overlord2]

As for extra structural damage [ESD], any damage which affects armor is doubled on structure. It's not just x2 damage.

I know but without shield and in case of armor<=structure we can simplify it to just x2 damage

When armor is zero damage is only 1X. ESD 'copies' damage that armor takes to structure.

Btw, VDC44 is uploaded.

Could you please in future provide changelog as separate link to .txt or at least add changelog from previous major version in first post?

Add link for the changelog to the front page? OK, np.

[Semmelbaecker]

So that means, ESD is even better than armor piercing, but at least the same effective.

A ~ armor
S ~ structure
D ~ total damage (if structure is 0, ship is destroyed)

Assume the attacker inflicts exactly S damage

1. case: A < S
D = 2*A + (S - A) = S + A
Result: A = 0, S = 0

2. case: A = S
D = 2*A = A + S
Result: A = 0, S = 0

3. case: A > S
D = 2*S
Result: A = A - S, S = 0

The result is, in all 3 cases, after inflicting S damage, the ship gets destroyed. In the first 2 cases, armor is gone as well and in the last case, some armor is left but it doesnt matter. Or am I wrong?

[angra]

When armor is zero damage is only 1X. ESD 'copies' damage that armor takes to structure.

I have bad news for you. Just tested this versus amoeba(no armor at all) and enemy battleship with 900/300. In both cases ESD works perfectly. And it always worked this way.

My fleet was two battleships with HEF and 10 Hv Graviton beams each. So it is 10*(33+22)=550 max damage per shot(ship) which will be reduced by shields and misses.

1. Amoeba. 878 damage per shot
2. Enemy battleship, max range. First shot did 582 damage and left enemy BS with 609/9. Second shot did 594 damage and destroyed this BS
3. Enemy battleship, closer range. First shot did 624 damage and left enemy BS with 576/0. Second shot did 674 damage and destroyed this BS.

So that means, ESD is even better than armor piercing, but at least the same effective.

Why do you compare apples to oranges?

[Overlord2]

Ok, here is an example how it works, then it will be clear. Lets take Zort armor BB:
Example#1 - 200 armor and 600 structure. First 200 damage will be vs armor and structure - eliminates all armor and 200 structure, the ship will be left 400hp of structure. Next damage will be 1x vs structure.
Example#2 - 600 armor and 200 structure. First 200 damage will be vs armor and structure - eliminates 200 armor and 200 structure. Since no structure is left the ship gets destroyed.
Example#3 - 600 armor and 600 structure. You need to inflict 600 damage to destroy the ship.
Basically ESD is analogous to achiless targeting unit with a little defference:
1) additionally it destroys armor; 2) it doesn't hit internals.
Btw, ap mod of massdrivers hits internals so its full analogue of the achiles with a reservation that heavy armor negates ap mod.

@angra
Your test is not clear, what are you comparing?

[Darza]

Angra, while your test methodologically is indeed wrong, but yes, Extra structure works as you propose, basically. A cannon what have that ability deal a X damage + X-1 damage. The X-1 damage is applied directly to structure, and unable to damage a systems. Also game have a wrong visual at displaying damage, roughly X+X/2 instead of 2X-1. Of course presence of armor at moment of shot have absolutely no connection to applying that damage. I hope that would make somewhat more clear about a quality of changes and claims from a certain mod maker, because its pretty basic knowledge on its own, how Extra structure works, known for years. And sadly its not the only basic fact what still was missed by him, so there is much work to be done.

Upd. In fact X-1 apply only to even damage, odd ones calculated simply as 2X. Also tested in VDC, and noticed what display bug about damage was fixed somewhere in a way from 1.40, so it show an actual damage. Without the possibility of mistake due to visual bug (what i hoped was the cause of, still trying to think about people hoping for the best), the fact what Iracly unable even to use own eyes made my jar dropped tbh.

Small upd 2: "My fleet was two battleships with HEF and 10 Hv Graviton beams each. So it is 10*(33+22)=550 max damage per shot(ship) which will be reduced by shields and misses." Actually its 10*(33+11(HEF is 50% of normal damage))=440, plus equal Extra structure, up to 440 again.

[Catalyst_Kh]

All that is much simpler explained in reverse:

A weapon with ESD just hits to structure directly all amount of damage, which left after shield reduction. And, if there is any armor left - the same amount of damage will be added to armor too.

About x-1 for even/odd numbers (don't remember ), it was mentioned ages ago, and have no influence on the subject of discussion.

[Darza]

Where you saw a discussion? You asked why *2. Angra tried to explain, then for some reason IR jumped to express his ignorance again. I posted how it work, vanilla and vdc behaviour. Now, after a blatantly wrong "A weapon with ESD just hits to structure directly all amount of damage, which left after shield reduction. And, if there is any armor left - the same amount of damage will be added to armor too" with alotta smiles, i see what you better start to think and read, instead of "joking every time" proposing other guys to "think". Joking is good, but only if you understand a subject on your own, and you clearly showd what you still not. For some reason initialliy i thought what you are smart, and tried to talk to you in equal way, now you clearly proved what i was wrong there.

[Overlord2]

Darza:
#1 you are talking about irrelevant things, what shows level of your logic.
#2 stop littering my thread, you are not welcome on it. If you want to discuss anything with someone go private.

[Overlord2]

Ok, here is an example how it works, then it will be clear. Lets take Zort armor BB:
Example#1 - 200 armor and 600 structure. First 200 damage will be vs armor and structure - eliminates all armor and 200 structure, the ship will be left 400hp of structure. Next damage will be 1x vs structure.

I was wrong about 1x damage, actually it's 2x damage vs plain structure too. Looks like Darza was correct about my ignorance, I was so sure how it worked, I didn't check it until now. I apologise for being wrong. Still the manner how Darza professes his knowledge could be more polite.