Defense vs. early missile ships. Can't deal with them.

Discussion on how to play against other humans.
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Nightbird
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Postby Nightbird » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:09 am

Nah, I do have barrier shield, hard shield and class 26 shield for planetary defense, which is the max. His torps simply kill the base ( with guns, missiles and fighters garrison ) in one volley.

From what I saw, at least 600 dmg per torpedoes. 400 minus at most 100, so say 300 x 4 env = 1200 / 2 = 600.

Which is consistent with the multiple 1200 dmg poping I saw over the planet since he got 2 of theses fully modified torps per battleships. Sure, 600 is less than 1600 dmg, but still a hefty lot too much for a base to handle when a dozen are coming it's way.

I was hoping enveloping dmg would not work against planets but unfortunately, it does which is I think the whole problem :( At least I learned there is no need for more than a radiation shield + shield 4 in next game :P

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:06 pm

You miscalculated a bit, actual damage would be (200-60-26)*4=114*4=456 per torpedo, though I should admit damage is rather high for ground installations to bear it. But you need to go up to interphased drive to get enveloping mod for plasma torpedo, which means its a late game and you could anticipate stellar converter too, which completely destroys all ground installations with a single shot. Generally it;s bad that enveloping works against planet, shouldn't be working, but unfortunately I can't fix that.
Also I would point out that in late game if you can't stop enemy fleet with your own fleet, game is over. Ground installations can't take care of fleet alone.
Another thing I'd point that planetary shields don't have own health points like ships shields, only damage reduction applies, which is wrong imo.
Ok, I might as well reconsider plasma torpedoes damage value.

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Nightbird
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Postby Nightbird » Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:47 pm

Overlord2 wrote:You miscalculated a bit, actual damage would be (200-60-26)*4=114*4=456 per torpedo


Are you sure dmg is divided before hitting shield ? My tests seems to show that shield reduction is applied before halving the weapon dmg against planet.

(400-60-26)= 314*4 = 1256 / 2 = 628 per torpedo.

I will run this again to make 100% sure but in actual game, dual torps did 1200+ dmg from what I remember.

Anyways, maybe the point is moot if the Stellar Converter really does 4000 dmg in VDC. It's about same tech level.

I'm not really sure what the solution would be. While I think theses weapons and some others do way too much dmg, maybe the barrier shield is too powerful ( leading to this need to increase in weapon dmg for top techs). My first idea to avoid afecting game balance would be to increase base space consumption to make theses weapon more sparse and dedicated rather than an end all weapon. ( exemple, in my head a stellar converter should only fit on a doom star but that's just me :) )

Still too early for me to propose something, I'll keep testing it out and post in the appropriate thread later.

Thanks for the help on how jamming works.

MadViper
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Postby MadViper » Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:54 am

Maybe the Reason of the increased damage is the presence of a good leader.

If a good leader with 30% damage-Increase (for example the meklar leader, who has +20% or +30 %) is in the attacking fleet, the damage values modify this way:

30% leader:
400 (Basic damage) /2 (planetary defense) *1,3 (leader) = 260 basic planetary damage per torpedo.

If he got Loknar (45% damage increase) the values shift to:

Basic damage against Planets: 400 /2 *1,45 = 290

This value is decreased by 54+26 =80 (BarrierShield + Shield XXVI) and the outcome damage is multiplied by 4 due to Enveloping.

Without leader:
(200 -80) * 4 = 480 damage per torpedo

EDIT:
!!! WARNING: Following Calculations are wrong, Correct Vaues follow in my next answer, forgot to calculate Overloaded in the right way !!!

Leader with +20% weapon damage:
(240 -80) *4 = 640 damage

Leader with +30%:
damage of (260-80) *4 = 720 damage per Torpedo

Loknar (45%):
(290-80) *4 =840 damage per Torpedo

If you say, that dual torpedos did about 1200 damage, i bet, he has a +20% Damage Leader in his fleet and the exact value was 1280 damage per dual torpedo hit.

As you can see, damage increasing leaders are very useful for fighting planetary defenses.
Last edited by MadViper on Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:27 am

First of all ordnance leader damage bonus applies in the end of all damage calculations after all reductions are done.
Second, Barrier Shield strength is 60 atm, was 64 before and 56 before 64. :)

Nightbird wrote:Are you sure dmg is divided before hitting shield ? My tests seems to show that shield reduction is applied before halving the weapon dmg against planet.

Of course, otherwise beam weapons would go through every time.

MadViper
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Postby MadViper » Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:55 am

Overlord2 wrote:First of all ordnance leader damage bonus applies in the end of all damage calculations after all reductions are done.
Second, Barrier Shield strength is 60 atm, was 64 before and 56 before 64. :)


Ah, nice to know, i havent followed the last changes in Barrier Shield absorption (i dunno why it was changed anyways, the difference is quite little enough)

That the damage-bonus applies in the end is completely new to me. I thought, that the damage boni are applied the same way as high-energy focus for beams do. I will check this and be back in some Time.

Edit:

Check done, my memories were nearly right. The damage boni from leaders are count exactly the same way as High-Energy Focus and modifications like Heavy-Mount are done. I just forgot, that Overloaded are calculated the same way as Heavy-Mount as well.

!!! IMPORTANT !!!

THE LEADER BONI APPLIES BEFORE ABSORPTION IS CALCULATED !!!

I will explain:

(((Basic Damage * Damage Modifier) * Target Modifier) - Absorb) * Number of Hits = Damage Done

Usual after calculating values in () The Number is rounded up afterwards and the rounded number is used for further calculations.

Damage Modifier are added together

There are these Damage Modifiers:

-50% for Point Defense
+50% for Heavy Mount
+50% for High Energy Focus
+50 for overloaded (exactly the same as for heavy mount)
+x% For leader

All Boni are added together, NOT multiplied!

Example:
If a battleship without leader fires a heavy-mount disruptor with high-energy focus against a Shieldclass 26 Barrier-Shield the Damage done is this:

Basic Damage for disruptor = 80
Modifier: +50% for Heavy Mount, +50% for High Energy Focus: +100% (additive boni) = 2

Target Modifier is -50% for Hits against planets = *0,5

Absorb Modifier is 60 For Barrier Shield and 26 for Shieldclass 26 = 86

Damage Done is:

80 * 2 / 2 - 86 = -6 -> 0 Damage Done

If Loknar (Damage +37%) is commanding the Battleship the Damage Done modifies this way:

Basic Damage = 80
Modifier: +50% for Heavy Mount, +50% for High Energy Focus, +37% for Leader: +137% (additive boni) = 2,37

Target Modifier is -50% for Hits against planets = *0,5

Absorb Modifier is 60 For Barrier Shield and 26 for Shieldclass 26 = 86

Damage Done is:

(((80 * 2,37) / 2) - 86) = 9 -> 9 Damage Done. If the HV Disruptor was Autofire, the Damage would be 9*3=27.

As you can See, damage modifiers from Leaders can lead to situations, where weapons still can do damage where ships without leader Boni would always do 0 Damage!

Back to the Torpedo Problem:

Basic Damage= 266
Modifier: +50% Overloaded = 1,5
Target Modifier: -50% = *0,5
Absorb Modifier: 60+26 = 86

Damage Done without Leader:

(((266 * 1,5) /2) - 86 ) * 4 = 456 Damage Done

Damage Done with 20% Leader:

(((266 * 1,7) /2) - 86 ) * 4 = 564 Damage Done

Damage Done with 30% Leader:

(((266 * 1,8 ) /2) - 86 ) * 4 = 616 Damage Done

Damage Done with Loknar (37%)

(((266 * 1,87) /2) - 86 ) * 4 = 652 Damage Done

Sometimes the Game rounds up or down in odd ways after calculating parts of the formula (i usual round up after calculating the basic Damage * damage modifier to get best results) so the Damage could differ some Points, but general the Damage Done should be exactly this. If the Enemy would have used a 30% Leader, the dual Torp Hit shall be 1232 Damage. :wink:

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:35 pm

MadViper wrote: !!! IMPORTANT !!!

THE LEADER BONI APPLIES BEFORE ABSORPTION IS CALCULATED !!!


yes, I put it wrong, maximum damage is increased, not after absorbtion.

MadViper wrote:All Boni are added together, NOT multiplied!

Basic Damage for disruptor = 80
Modifier: +50% for Heavy Mount, +50% for High Energy Focus: +100% (additive boni) = 2

Hmm, never realized it worked that way. I always had a feeling bonuses are multiplied. Megafail by game designers!
It comes out damage increase from HEF is 50% for normal beams and only 33% for HV mount beams. Same way leader bonus applies only on base value and should be multiplied by 2/3 for hvy mount beams :(.

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:16 am

Updated VDC for new damage of plasma torpedoes. Things should look better now.

3022
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Postby 3022 » Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:47 pm

Before some years, I have used the same hit & run missile tactic.
Now I think that he is not so efficient how he looks... (I prefer now combination of fighters carriers and beam ships for this game phase).

It mus be said, that if big fleet attacks, big fleet mus defend. There is no way how stop inteligent opponent only with static defense. It has bassicaly nothing to do with missiles - similar hit & run tactic can be performed with destroyers armed only with few heavy mount weapons.

On larger galaxy you can use small frigates with Battle scanners (+3 scaning bonus) like guards front of your territory. You can detect incoming enemy fleets and prepare him nice suprise. On small maps, the frontlines are perhaps already set and those who have not prepared defense and who do to atacks first will perhaps lose the battle deservedly.

On tactic level... on beginning, if you have them, you can perhaps put many anti-missile rockets on your newly build ships with green crew and ships with elite crew use like "point defense" ships preferably with regular beams. That should neutralise most of the missiles and reduce the losses in first time.

The abillity to make casualties to attacker before he exits depends imho only on initiative.

When he attacks the planet, you should have +10 advantage in attack class from Star base. When you will attack him from blocade, the advantage of attacker will be your. When you do not have worse admiral, worse engine technology, bigger and slower ships with less experienced crews, you should be able to shoot back in the same way. With decent amout of ships with some amount of heavy mount beam weapons, you should be able kill some attackers before they exiting. Problem is not that enemy shoots first or that your missiles are slower. Problem is that he commonly attacks with more, smaller, agile ships on static targets.

From diferent point of view... imho the biggest thread are the regular MIRVed nukes - when enemy becomes something better, then you will have a lot bette counterweaponry for the "anti-missile warfare". That gives to the enemy only sightly limited time for his attacks and you the better chance to neutralise them in short-term with fighters or "fast, small beam snipers".

Most efficient and feared (at least opposite ships and orbital bases) are EMG rockets. But on the same tech level where you will discover EMGs, instead them, you can get Rangemaster unit what will boost you beam fire accuracy and therefore even the PD efficiency and long-range retaliation force on whole new level. With rangemaster unit you should be able destroy the missile attackers alot easily.

Warp dissipater can you have even faster and with him, such like attack fleet can not retreat and it will be completly destroyed if you can survive the first critical two, three turns.

Problem is imho not with missiles, but with torpedoes, because you can not shot them down like missiles or fighters, and they are faster than missiles. Especially for small ships torpedoes are deadly... but how has Overlord2 said, they have likewise disadvantages opposite to beam weaponry and planetary defence, which are likewise on different level in the time, where you can get decent torpedoes.


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