The Orion Nebula

Hi Time,

thanks for your input into this topic.
Above I specifically pointed that we talk about original moo. The problem is that in original moo there is really limited number of measures to deal with this tactics: either huge amount of pd > than missiles on a board or selfdestructing ffs or dds near moving missiles or combination of these. And in the case of unpreparedness (lack of information on enemy's designs) it is practically impossible to handle such tactics. Unlike other mods in original moo very few people count on such thing as jammers, since ECM jammer is weak (people are additionally -20 defense, which worsens situation) and no availability of better jammers till it is too late.
As for the question is this tactics just theory or tested in practice, I can assure that it has been tested in games with humans and everybody called it cheesy way of playing (very few people who admitted this tactics).
The description of antimatter torps as well as of many other things in moo is inaccurate. The actual speed of antimatter torps is 18, which enables to use this tactics all right.
Also about other defenses you counted, they come very, very late. To realize this tactics you just need Zort, emg mercs and antimatter torps...the first three are priority techs in every original moo game. So the extra efforts to use this tactics is just to spend 2k Rps on antimatter, which is much more cheap than any alternative defensive tech described above. Conclusion about viability and effectiveness of this tactics is clear. The other question is whether to allow it or not.

I guess the next question I have is:
Who is using the tactic first? Uni Races or other Races, such as Demos?
If it is the non-Unis using this, then, I am all for it (at least for awhile, lol).

Otherwise, the tactic should be avoided in competitive games against unexpecting players.
If all the players on the map agree that the tactic is fair game, before the game has started, then, sure, why not. The 1st one to the appropiate techs could exploit it 1st, but, could be hammered with it himself later too, especially, if it a 2 vs 2 game.

To those in single player games only, obviously, this tactic could be used.
To those in LAN games, I would suggest the same as for an online competitive game, whatever, your group decides on is fair for all.

As you know in original moo uni is the only race taken unless it is banned. Standard bans are omni, tol, +2 prod and everybody end taking uni aqua +1 prod +50 pop large rich hw.
I haven't had much practice with this tactics allowed 'cause many players refuse to accept it. But I can see negative consequences of allowing this tactics: everybody will rush for antimatter torps. If one manages to get torps and attack before his opponent can get them he wins. Also warp dissipator helps it

My 2 cents worth:

Does this combo prevent the use of a design feature (namely PD)? Yes.
Does this combo work this way because it's meant to work this way? No.

In short, does it cause the unintended consequence that an otherwise target-able missile becomes immune to PD fire because of the stacking of the two. The answer is clearly a yes, so it is undeniably an exploit and as such needs to go.

How best to handle this? Ideally, the code would be altered and then the stacking problem would be eliminated (which after all, is what the problem really is), and all would be well.

Barring a code modification, a banning of the combo would be possible, but IIUC, it is only the torp being on top that is causing this problem and that could be solved by reversing the order. Presumably then the missiles would be on top of the stack, and therefore available for PD fire. It is only in the case of exploitative play that this is an issue at all, and even then it isn't a total game breaker.

"Consequently if pd beams are not enough missiles go through and hit the ship, which can blow up, if the missiles had emg. This tactics is based on the fact that you can't target/shoot missiles with beams, while they move synchronously with antimatter torpedo. "

It sounds like one's PD weapons work normally, just not one's regular beams, should one choose to target the missiles with them too.
Just to clarify.

My opinion, which shares the most common: It's a bug and it should not been used.

Besides: PD-beams are used automatically destroying missiles ine the last step before impact. And normally it's better to let them shoot automatically cause of distance modifiers.

The bug only appears while you want to protect a ship, which is not the active one. I guess using the bug is harassment, but it won't change gameplay. For myself I allways use some self-destruction-frigs for preventing from masses of missiles or jump out ship by ship depending on missile targets.

It's minor gameplay bug, but it's a bug the devs just forgot to implement.

"Consequently if pd beams are not enough missiles go through and hit the ship, which can blow up, if the missiles had emg. This tactics is based on the fact that you can't target/shoot missiles with beams, while they move synchronously with antimatter torpedo. "

It sounds like one's PD weapons work normally, just not one's regular beams, should one choose to target the missiles with them too.
Just to clarify.

Oooopppsss! I may have misunderstood that.

I was thinking that only the PD of the actual target vessel would get to fire on the incoming missiles, and that a purpose built PD DD wouldn't be able to fire it's weapons at them either. I remember the first time I built some ships to wipe enemy missile volleys, and running them right up to the missiles that were targeted on my BB's and blasting them right off the map!

Can anyone confirm that it is only non-PD beams that cannot be used in the aforementioned situation?

pd can fire at incoming missiles in autofire regime only , I have specified this in the description of the tactics. In all other cases missiles are protected by torpedo.
Clarifying example: when missiles along with torpedo are about to hit the ship the first one hits torpedo, as it was in the first row. Then come missiles. Only at this moment pd start to work. If amount of pd isn't enough to shoot the whole salvo of missiles some them go through and hit the ship, which will blow up if there was emg missiles.

Ok, so I did understand correctly after all.

So, it is definitely in the realm of an exploit in the coding of the game and not some intended match-up of techs that allows for the negating of other vessels PD weapons raping the missiles on their way to the target ship.

I would think that this should be a no-go between players, but might just be something to try on the poor AI, lol.

So is it banned??? This warrants a decision!

So is it banned??? This warrants a decision!

I guess it's banned for regular moo. In VDC the speed of antimatter torpedoes was increased to 19, which ensures missiles and torpedoes won't have equal speed, 'cause missile speeds are even numbers and antimatter torp speed is odd number. Thus, this tactics isn't possible in VDC.

Smart decision.
Perhaps, in any future revisions of MOO2, something similar could be done for the A-M torps, such as +1 more speed.

Hey. I guess I'm semi-necroing this thread, so apologies, but I figured I'd add my two cents.

I regularly go to tournaments for Super Smash Bros. Melee, and amongst Melee tournament players, this sort of thing is considered a spiffy/tricky technique that of course everyone would use and why wouldn't they?

I've also followed serious StarCraft tournaments a bit, and I know for certain that these sorts of things are regularly used in that game and considered normal, including at the World Cyber Games.

I'm pretty sure that whether or not it's a bug is irrelevant - if it makes the game better, it makes the game better.

It's definitely an exploit though.

I guess what it ultimately comes down to is what the community wants. But I think if the community is being totally rational, the only question is: does this seriously ruin the game?

If the answer is no, then what's the problem?

If the answer is yes, then it should be nerfed/fixed in a patch, or else banned/the community generally agrees to not use it.

That said, even if it doesn't seriously ruin the game, a lot of players are going to get really frustrated by it when they first have it used on them, so there's some possibility that it should be removed anyway.

So, I don't really know how devastatingly effective or simplifying a tactic this is, and I don't know how the MOOII community feels about such things, so I don't have an opinion on what should be done. It seems like a pretty cool technique to me though, and I definitely wouldn't mind having it used on me.