New race

Discussion on how to play against other humans.
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Postby mojo » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:45 am

In my humble opionion nothing is near as strong as Unification and Subterran.

Rich HW

Low-G HW
Espionage -10

Alternatively you can choose Repulsive and Large HW instead of Low-G HW.

Cybernetic sounds a bit strange, but it works perfectly with Subterran. In most games your HW is the best productive planet and also the only planet that can produce food fairly well. Cybernertic helps to lower the effort to produce food. Though you are Subterran you can easily abstain from biospheres. The hydroponic farm also works with Cybernertic. So every planet that has a hydroponic farm produces 4 food for free. This give your HW a big margin for producing ships and stuff. Not mentioned the built in autorepair.

So cybernetic is a strong pick, if you choose subterran. If you dont choose subterran, the advantage is not that large and imho not worth 4 points.

Also Low-G HW seems to be a strange pick. but if you take into account that most good planets are Heavy-G the disadvantage is not that big. Of course you have on serveral planets a 25% penalty. But I think 5 points are worth it. If you choose that, you should plan to get the gravity generator technology. If you dont want to pick that, you should take repulsive.

I also think Population Growth is not neccessarily needed in connection with subterran. Thanks to cybernetic you don't have to produce to much food, soil enrichment is a nice technology but not hardly needed. You can pick Cloning Center instead which helps to boom your population enough.

I've played MoO2 for a long time and tried a lot of different things, but nothing got close to this.

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Postby Darza » Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:27 pm

You definitely need to try "different things" much more, somehow you missed a good tries yet. But at least you get into unification, its a right direction.

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Postby rewster1 » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:18 am

IMO the only "good" way to use cybernetic is if you also have tolerant, because cyber eats up the most valuable part of your production (the part that is unaffected by pollution). "Good" may be stretching it, as unitol +prod large is going to build housing much faster than unitol cyber. You can't ship production, so you may as well not even bother building an early housing planet on any upoor or poor. I suppose cybertol makes sense if you wanted to make a dict or feudal production race. But then you'd have a bad race almost by default.

Also hydro farms are bad. Even for cyber + sub. I wouldn't be surprised if someone here had done a term paper on this subject by now. Costs 2 BCs per planet, you give up biosphere (which is good even for sub, makes tiny planets 5 pop instead of 3), and probably a bunch of reasons I can't recall, but there's probably a thread on it.

I'm not sure I see where sub and cyber actually benefit from each other. Sub means more people, so even more of your precious initial pollution free production is destroyed by cyber.

For 1 pick more than uni sub cyber you could have uni sub aqua, which would give you even more population and no production destruction. Your two initial farmers only feed 9 instead of 12, but you're already into diminishing returns there (neither race would need soil enrichment).

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Postby mojo » Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:49 am

Maybe we have a different understanding what the "best" race is. In that race it's highly prioritized that the race should work in any enviroment.

This means, that you have to image a realm in which only your HW can produce food (all other are barren/toxic/radiated) and your HW is your only productive planet, that can produce a battle ship in under 20 turns for example.

I don't know how exactly you set up your universe, I do that with Difficulty Impossible (I'm still not sure, if this has an influence on the universe) / Huge Univere / Average Age / Pre Warp. No parameters to change the Home System.

In this configuration I'd say every third game has that hard enviroments like described above or close to that.

I had several games with subterran in that my HW was the only planet that could have been fairly well productive, but it just had 4-5 workers because the rest of the population had to produce food.

With a subterran race, which is extremly strong I'd say, I do have many problems to feed them. Cybernetic just halves these problems. For every two population you loose one production. To be fair, yes the pollution is a problem. You need less farmer, but more worker. So let's say you loose for every two population 1.5 production. I don't think that its that much.

Lets say you are aquatic and you have unification and a rich HW. If you are forced to produce with your home world your food production is 4.5 units per worker. If you have cybernetic instead of aquatic and you have build automated factories and robo miner plants, your worker produce 12 units.

So you loose 5.5 (minus the extra pollution) produced units per population that has to produce food. I'd say this is a big disadvantage.

You get a great benefit from aquatic towards cybernetic, when you find tundra/swamp/ocean/terran/gaia planet that is ultra poor.

The subject hydro farms vs biospheres could be an extra topic. Biospheres are great. I love them. But if you are focusing on having a highly producing HW and you are subterran/cybernetic, hydro farms do a great job. They cost you 2 BC per turn per planet, thats right. But with cybernetic they are 4 freithers (5 cost 1 BC) less for every colony that does not produce food. And in addition a blockaded system has at least a production of 4... Unthinkable what happens, if your food planet gets blockaded.

There is more than on side of the medal. ;)

So if you have hard conditions in a game, this race doesn't bother that much like other races. But if you have great conditions, you still can use them extremly well and just overrun your enemies.

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Postby Darza » Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:07 am

Well, thats very easy to define what "best" race is any environment. It could be 2 races for AI play (one is for fastest perfomance, and other for maximum points) and races for MP games (where things went somewhat more complicated, but still can be defined after you add some more parameters). As far i got you are speaking about AI play - well, then this doesnt match any of needed criteria - its awfully slow, and it have a racial picks what exceeds -10. Anyway UniTolProd+1 is much better in your "imaginary realm", coz its plainily most stabile race for expanding, compared to others, it doesnt care about planet quality. At least it dont need full 20 turns to "produce a battle ship". And yes, its about large\huge pre-advanced org without any change to planets.

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