Neutron Blaster and Transporters

Discussion on how to play against other humans.
ivanich
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Neutron Blaster and Transporters

Postby ivanich » Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:33 pm

These two combinations are teh uber :D
My beam ships are usually equipped with a ton of neutron blasters. I find that it's easiler to capture ships than destroy them outright. This is how I wipe out entire AI fleets. Capture them all, then scrap them for tech and cash LOL.

But I'm getting sick of this tactic.

I want to design ships that can destroy fleets.

Can any of you share with me some of your best beam ship design? I rarely get to research up till Hyper physics, so shrinking of weapons after disrupters is a rarity. (I usually tech up to disrupters, first level)

I have tried to pack in shrunk phasors with all mods into a battleship but they don't destroy ships in one turn :cry:

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Time
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Postby Time » Sun Apr 06, 2008 8:15 am

Destroy ships in one turn?
One word: Plasmacannons!

Lots of Heavy Plasmacannons, with a Battle Scanner and the best Computer you can get, and POP, Battleships explode!

For Earlier games, Heavy Graviton Beams work well. They do damage to both Armor AND Structure.
MOO1 Fan, MOO2 Fan, MOO3 needed too many changes = hopeless, getting older waiting for a MOO4 (still).

ivanich
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Postby ivanich » Sun Apr 06, 2008 8:54 am

I'm playing V1.4, I heard that plasma cannons were more effective in V1.2, where you can pack in tons of them.

I tried packing in autofire, heavy mounted shield piercing phasors with HEF. Can't really say they did better than autofire heavy gauss cannons with armor piercing.

The thing about shield piercing, is it really worth it? Because shields are easily defeated, once you get past the shields, you have to destroy armor to get to the structure.

Armor piercing seems more worth it in this case. But are useless if the enemy has heavy armor. And I don't really want to go the force field path cuz I want my Disrupters!

Usually against the AI, I won't get to the point where I can shrink disrupters enough to pack a load of them in a Titan.....

c'g~
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Postby c'g~ » Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:44 pm

Hi, ivanich.

ivanich wrote:I'm playing V1.4, I heard that plasma cannons were more effective in V1.2, where you can pack in tons of them.

Plasma Cannon still can be effective, but under some additional conditions:
- sufficient level of miniaturization
- desirable target without Shields (or with downed Shields or low level Shields)
- against Missiles/Fighters/Shuttles Plasma Cannon is very effective
- usage for Shields Downing for purpose of assured delivery to Target Drive Missiles with EGS Mod (in short: usage with Missile/Enveloping Torpedoes)

But, Plasma Canon isn’t very good choice, cos:
- Plasma Cannon positioned with Plasma Web and Plasma Rifle (against Plasma Web there is no defense and Plasma Rifle is the best available GC weapon).

ivanich wrote:I tried packing in autofire, heavy mounted shield piercing phasors with HEF. Can't really say they did better than autofire heavy gauss cannons with armor piercing.

Phasors with AF, SP, HM/Pd modifications is the best choice, in all aspects:
- U can pick them very early
- U can pick them very easily (there is no tough choice in their field)
- U can NOT freely pick Gauss Cannons, cos it positioned with Class V Shields, which along with very long interval of Shields researches usually picked
- U cant pick nor the Neutron Blaster (cos it positioned with indispensable Neutron Scanner) nor the Graviton Beam (cos it placed with “must have” Gravity Generator) – so only available and fast beam choice after Lasers (and maybe Fusions) is Phasors
- Phasors ignores shields (with SP mod), besides Hard Shields (allow to ignore SP mod) positioned pretty late, so U can use Phasors long enough

ivanich wrote:Armor piercing seems more worth it in this case. But are useless if the enemy has heavy armor. And I don't really want to go the force field path cuz I want my Disrupters!

Heavy Armor is Creative prerogative ONLY , cos Heavy Armor positioned with Automated Factory, wich is undeniable 100% pick in original MoO2. So, Armor Piercing is useful.
But, Armor Piercing counters with good Shields pretty well (for example with Class V Shields). So again, Phasors with SP Mod – is the best choice in original MoO2.

Therefore, I have just one solution: play MoO2 with Modifications (for example: EXPa Pro Mod, which U can find here: http://www.spheriumnorth.com/orion-forum/nfphpbb/viewtopic.php?t=576).
There U can create huge variety of Ship Designs and receive a new experience, etc.

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Tifi
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Postby Tifi » Thu May 01, 2008 7:11 am

Ion Pulse Cannons :lol:

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Time
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Postby Time » Sun May 04, 2008 11:32 pm

But, Plasma Canon isn’t very good choice, cos:
- Plasma Cannon positioned with Plasma Web and Plasma Rifle (against Plasma Web there is no defense and Plasma Rifle is the best available GC weapon).


Not really.
Plasma Web does little damage compared to plasmacannon, and plasma rifle is usually unecessary, if you bomb the planet alittle to reduce the # of troops on the planet.
I usually get both. Autofire Continous Phasers are the next best point defense weapons after continous enveloping fusion beams, and if you obtain fighter bays (capturing an enemy planet or spying) they upgrade your fighters automatically, no refits necessary, just like the armor does.
Megafluxers allow you to have more plasmacannons on your ships.
Also, best if you research 1 level beyond the tech you want, to reduce their space cost.
And yes, very effective when the opponent has Class 1-3 shields or none.
Comp opponents don't usually have reinforced hull And heavy armor And zortrium armor And class 5 shields And Hard shields. so, your odds of this working well are in your favor.
MOO1 Fan, MOO2 Fan, MOO3 needed too many changes = hopeless, getting older waiting for a MOO4 (still).

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Tifi
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Postby Tifi » Thu May 15, 2008 5:02 am

Time wrote:And yes, very effective when the opponent has Class 1-3 shields or none.


With those circumstances, you could use any weapon you liked with equally favourable results :P

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Time
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Postby Time » Thu May 15, 2008 10:14 pm

Tifi wrote:
Time wrote:And yes, very effective when the opponent has Class 1-3 shields or none.


With those circumstances, you could use any weapon you liked with equally favourable results :P

Not exactly.
example: A BB attacks you. It has Heavy Armor, Reinforced Hull and Class 3 shields.
If you attack it with Hvy, AP, autoF Mass Drvrs. You hit 1 shield, and they result in too little damage, and AP benefit is blocked by Hvy Arm.
If you attack with Hvy, Cont Grav Beams. You hit 1 shield, and they result in little damage, but to both Hull and armor.
Hvy, autoF Phasors. You hit 1 shield, and they result in better damage.
In all of these cases, all the opponent has to do, is change his shield facing, to reduce you attack by his shield strength and those attacks with autofire, can miss on the 2nd and 3rd attacks (since they have reduced accuracy).
Plasmacannons, hit all 4 shields. when the shields are gone, the opponent takes damage from all 4 sides. No reduced accuracy, you get 4x damage (great vs missles and fighters too, btw a place where the later Disrs would be overkill).
If you don't feel there are enough weapons on it yet. It may be time to start building Titans, with that great economy of yours. :D
MOO1 Fan, MOO2 Fan, MOO3 needed too many changes = hopeless, getting older waiting for a MOO4 (still).

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Tifi
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Postby Tifi » Thu May 29, 2008 5:30 am

Erm..
AF weapons are the same as ENV - they hit or miss entirely, in one go.
The only differences are x3 damage to one facing as opposed to x1 damage to all facings, and -20 OCV. :P

Battleship example:
Hv. MDs will murder that BB :?

Hv. MD = 9 dmg
AF = 27 dmg (assuming it hits with its ever-so-useful -20)

Class 3 shields drop that to 24 dmg, and can stop 50-ish dmg (can't remember exactly...)

Assume the BB has Trit. Armour which = 450 struct/armour with specials.
450/24 = 18.75
50/24 = 2.08
18.75+18.75+2.08 = 39.58
So that BB given in your example will take 40 Hv. AF MDs to kill, which by the time you have the tech to produce AF/AP mods is trivially easy to field.
They'll be about 13 tons each, 13x40 = 520 tons
Too big to fit on a single ship at that stage, but who ever uses single ships?

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Time
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Postby Time » Sat May 31, 2008 9:12 pm

The one thing abot MassD or Gauss, is that you have to give up something important to get them, usually shields.
If, for example, one intends to get Radiation Shield to terraform one's planets later, or for the 5 point damage reduction, then one has to get Class 1 shields and/or Class 5 Shields.
This is where the Mass and Gauss are.
So, it will depend on your strategy (unless, of course, you are lucky enough to steal the tech you wanted, or needed).
MOO1 Fan, MOO2 Fan, MOO3 needed too many changes = hopeless, getting older waiting for a MOO4 (still).

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Tifi
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Postby Tifi » Wed Jun 04, 2008 8:22 am

MD Choice @ Fields 250

Mass Driver
ECM Jammer
Class I shield.

ECM is not really all that useful, so its a non-choice leaving MDs and basic shields.
Personally, I'll take the shields 99% of the time and use Fusion or even Lasers for a bit longer.
(Don't underestimate Lasers, they can still skin a battleship well into the midgame :wink: )

Basic Planet shields are in Fields 900 with Class III shields and Warp Dissipators, so I don't know where you pulled that link to Class I and Class V shields from as I'd probably be getting Warp Dizzies anyway. :P

Gauss Cannons are in Fields 2750 with Class V shields and another ECM thingy.
Again, I'd go for the Shields over the Weapons as Phasors are far far better for less cost, and upgrade fighters as well.

I will admit however to having something of an aversion (for better or worse) to these two projectile weapons.
My reasoning is thus:
I tend to favour beam ships quite a lot and am somewhat resentful of having to give up -20 attack just to be able to have AF.
I rarely ever use AP unless I know 100% that my opponent does not have Hv. Armour, also I like to use my beams to pick off missiles/fighters as well and adding AP wastes damage potential on trying to cut through armour which isn't there.
And finally, I really think a lot of people underestimate just how much more survivable even the smallest shield makes your ships - especially if we're still using pretty weak weapons.

So after that somewhat longwinded ramble I come to the conclusion that your overall assesment that MDs & Gauss are indeed generally considered to be a 'Difficult Choice', just not necessarliy by everyone.
Maybe I'll just shut up with my backwards priorites eh? :P

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Iceman
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Postby Iceman » Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:32 pm

I would say that if you can afford it, using Achilles Targeting Unit is better than making your weapons armor piercing. You can also use it to make weapons ignore armor that aren't normally capable of ignoring armor, such as Phasors. A few levels of miniaturization make Shield Piercing, Autofire Phasors monsters when coupled with the Achilles Targeting Unit. Of course, if you don't have good computers, you might not want to research Achilles Targeting Unit in the first place, but you should at least have Battle Scanner.

CaducityX
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Postby CaducityX » Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:03 am

Tifi wrote:Hv. MD = 9 dmg
AF = 27 dmg (assuming it hits with its ever-so-useful -20)

Class 3 shields drop that to 24 dmg, and can stop 50-ish dmg (can't remember exactly...)


Last I checked, AF isn't one big attack, it's three separate attacks. So your example of 27 damage reduced to 24, would actually be 18 assuming all three hit. Making your attack with Hv. 33% worse, and regular 50% worse. Same happens with Enveloping, it's 4 separate attacks. Try a Env Fusion beam on a Class 3 Shield and see how much it does.

Gorean
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Postby Gorean » Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:59 pm

Hmm. I was surprised to see it suggested that ECM is a non-pick. I've had situations where my opponent will surprise me with highly developed missiles on their ships, and strong missile defenses. In these cases I often have a lot of trouble countering until I can get up to lightning fields, and wide area jammers. I think the ECMs would be really useful if they were taken as a sort of safety pick, if this kind of strategy were common from your opponent. Also, it isn't too hard to skip the first shield pick, and then grab the second one later.
Vita multis dat nimis, satis nulli.

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Wed Dec 16, 2009 4:15 am

Ridiculously, but Gauss Cannon is chosen in regular moo in MP games in 99% of the cases :roll:
Gauss Cannon is on the way to shields and defense stuff like inertial nullifier, and this is what defines the choice in most cases. Also immobilizing effect of gauss cannons can't be underestimated. Supposed symmetrical counter as a Mauler Device doesn't work efficiently enough due to low damage (gauss cannon ship does more damage and immobilizes as well).


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