Comparing Unification with Feudalism for blitz purposes, regular moo

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Overlord2
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Comparing Unification with Feudalism for blitz purposes, regular moo

Postby Overlord2 » Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:42 am

Darza wrote:Well, even in "classic, where was no balance and only Uni-Uni-Uni" actually Uni was best choice only under some special game settings. Another best ones included Feu as fastest anti-AI races; Demo, that generally outperform Uni from Prewarp; Crea for Advanced, and even Dict could be used to construct some true Anti-races, so even it was best in something in comparison to others. Game balance is not about to make a totally different races to "have them something relatively close in one benchmark", at least in moo2.

Not sure who you are addressing this sentence, but I will say my opinion on it. Uni is the best choice in all game settings in regular moo. For blitz Uni tele transd is better than fuedal tele transd; Demo can't out-perform uni from prewarp and for advanced start you take unification based creative race; not saying about the average start development game, where uni was the best without question. So when you say game balance isn't to make totally different races, I don't quite understand what you mean by that, since in all benchmarks uni was better than non-uni.


Rocco wrote:I think that Feud P+2 should be a faster Blitz than UNI from Avg tech start, as it can build the first CA and Outpost Ships faster.

No, its not faster and it is easy to verify.

First we should agree that any comparison is made with all other things being equal. This is axiom of any testing procedure.
So, the blitz race includes the picks: telepathic (6), transdimensional (5), large hw (1), rich hw (2), total 14 picks. These are common for the two races. For the last 6 picks we make comparison between feudal +2 prod (6) and unification (6).

In this case we are testing how fast the races can produce 1 freighter, refit two scouts to remove laser cannon, build 2 outposts and interceptor cruiser on a large rich planet. 2 outposts are always enough to make contact on large map, 8 players game. I don’t consider blitz on huge map since there is a high risk that not only interceptors but also deuterium cells will be required to research, in which case feudal blitz is doomed. In fact on a large map usually only 1 outpost is enough, which gives unification even more advantage.

Cost of cruiser and outposts is different for these two races due to 33% cost discount for feudal race: 230 BC +2*66 for feudal and 345 BC + 2*100 for unification race.
Total prod needed will be:
Feudal: 10+50+230+132 = 422
Unification: 10+50+345+200=605

However feudal race has penalty on research and it takes more time to research interceptors.
As mentioned above comparison should be made with all other things being equal, so lets consider 120 rp cost for interceptors. 80 RPs at 50% roll.

For both races it is optimal to keep 1 pop on production in order to save prod from pollution penalty.
Feudal race will be producing 5 rps/turn with 3 scientist and it will take 22 turns to research interceptors. Should be 24, but the engine gives a discount for 2 turns.
Production stored will be 5 prod for 12 turns and 11 prod for 10 turns after a new pop is born.
Total prod stored will be 60+110=170
After turn 22 feudal will be producing 21 prod/turn.

Unification researches interceptors in 10 turns with 12 (15) rps/turn. You get 15 when second colony starts farming.
Total production stored will be 8*10=80


General formula for production output is: total production - pollution
Pollution is calculated as: (total production/pollution cleaners - no pollution prod*nanodis coef.)/2 - updated formula.
Since there is no nano disassember and pollution cleaners available the formula for pollution will be:
(Total production – no pollution prod)/2
So we have:
For feudal +2 prod with 5 workers on prod output will be: (5+2)*5- [(5+2)*5-8)]/2= 35-13.5= 21 prod/turn
Production to produce will be 422-170= 252/21 ~ +12 turns after turn 22, which is t34.

For Unification with 6 workers on prod output will be: 5*6*1.5 - [5*6*1.5-8]/2= 45 - 18.5= 26 prod /turn
Production to produce will be 605-80 = 525/ 26 ~ +20 turns after turn 10 which is t32.

As one can see unification produces first cruiser faster.
This example doesn’t consider cash though. With buying part of production with cash one can hasten production. But with all other things being equal in the test neither side gets an advantage with cash.

Also one can say that subsequent cruisers will be produced faster by feudal race, but that’s not exactly so either. Feudal race will be producing each new cruiser every 10 turns while unification each 11 turns. 3rd cruiser they produce at the same time. However this doesn’t count a strategy where unification starts housing on a second colony instead of just farming and grows more pop early, which can be used for farming later to free farmers from the main world.
And the most important factor was neglected so far, which is after capturing enemy pop unification race enjoys all government bonuses, which are far superior to feudal race. In result overall production of the empire will be much higher. While 3 cruisers are enough to kill any AI opponent overall advantage of unification over feudal is obvious.

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Darza
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Re: Comparing Unification with Feudalism for blitz purposes, regular moo

Postby Darza » Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:15 pm

Excessive amount of very basic arithmetic, probably of quantity enough to earn a magister in XI century or so. And one, what could been saved in case you'd bother to listen yesterday, as you missed a keyword. Peak. Im used MSpaint madskillz of mine to help you:
Image
Thats a very approximate graph of races (actually the types of races) you're mentioned (i can draw some another graphs for a cases you tend to miss, i know some). As you can see, Red is generally better than Blue, not only integral have a larger value, its better in any given point actually. Except one. Where Blue have a larger one. Thats the peak performance of Blue. Its always larger than the peak performance of Red. Its very basic of math, school level. Just not very early arithmetic you tend to stick to. As you decided to write that mess despite im directly pointed you to a peak performance initially, im not sure if i have to explain some more complicated than that stuff, say playing of moo2, etc, as you dont listen and prefer to talk with yourself (in short - you mix Reliability and Peak, as always, and while your calculations for a case that is different than one, that was initially discussed, are probably correct - they actually not about moo2, but about moo2, what exist in your imagination, after you cut from it anything you dont know or dont like about it).

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Overlord2
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Re: Comparing Unification with Feudalism for blitz purposes, regular moo

Postby Overlord2 » Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:22 pm

Darza, you are sick man. Go and get psychic treatment.

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Rocco
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Re: Comparing Unification with Feudalism for blitz purposes, regular moo

Postby Rocco » Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:40 pm

Let me contribute a video i made last month to this excellent discussion.
You can shoot critiques, as it is not a perfect execution but in any case better than 99% moo2 material out there.
In summary: first CA is built at T9 in default situation, in this video T8 due to space debris find.
This is not in Large map, but difference will be small, just 1-2 OP which can be produced <10 turns.
It is also assuming a Blitz game without Sabotage Darza :)

Overlord2: About the Interceptors, yes that is costing Feudal some turns to research, and if they are not found via Artifacts, then its probably better to keep churning out nuke-boats. In any case when playing Feudal, I would only start researching after snow-ball has started (2 races conquered). Deuterium Cells are mostly not necessary. I would go for Fusion Drive if I stay on nukes and fusion beam after I got Interceptors.

Darza: Love the graph, it is of exceptional quality.

About pollution: i think pollution is calculated as:
((total production/pollution cleaners) - no pollution prod*nanodis coef.))/2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfxrvrHDDHU

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Re: Comparing Unification with Feudalism for blitz purposes, regular moo

Postby Overlord2 » Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:24 pm

The video you have made is for a small map, where you start very close to the opponent. I meant the large map, where distance is higher. On the large map opponent might be able to build some fleet before you reach him and missiles damage won't be enough to kill both starbase and the fleet. Though you can attack in two rounds. First round take out fleet and second get the starbase. Timewise it is about same as taking out starbase with interceptor cruiser, maybe a little faster. The difference is you get a destroyer, but no interceptors. Why I never considered missiles is because interceptors is much more reliable way when you deal human player rather than AI.


The cost of missile cruisers (9 nuclear missiles 2 ammo) compared to interceptor one is:
Feudal race: 270;
Unification: 405

Missile destroyer (4 nuclear missiles 2 ammo):
Feudal race: 90
Unification: 135

Production output for fuedal will be 18/21; for unification will be 26 first 8 turns and 34 rest turns. Without scrapping Colony ship unification requires 1 less outpost. So 2 outposts for feudal will be 132 pp, one outpost for unification will be 100.

Total production demand will be:
Feudal: 270+90+132=492
Unification: 50+405+135+100=690

The time required for unification to build first couple of ships will be about same, but unification still gets its government bonus from all captured opponents. Consequently total time required to conquer all opponents will be less.

About pollution: i think pollution is calculated as:
((total production/pollution cleaners) - no pollution prod*nanodis coef.))/2

No, it is exactly the formula I have pointed. Was verified both in the code and on practice.

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Re: Comparing Unification with Feudalism for blitz purposes, regular moo

Postby Overlord2 » Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:59 pm

@Darza
Your several sentences:
in short - you mix Reliability and Peak....im directly pointed you to a peak performance initially....another best ones included Feu as fastest anti-AI races

Bring any number of saves for t0 and we compare uni vs feudal. In how many saves unification should beat feudal so that one can say that feudal is worse? The notion of peak you used is just nonsense. If fuedal is better than uni in 1 game out of 100 you can't say feudal is the fastest. Such statement is just nonsense. And when you keep stating such nonsense you are sick.

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Rocco
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Re: Comparing Unification with Feudalism for blitz purposes, regular moo

Postby Rocco » Tue Aug 18, 2015 5:13 pm

The video you have made is for a small map, where you start very close to the opponent.

yes, thats why i called it a 'contribution' rather than argument. on a large map I would not have scrapped the CS.

Why I never considered missiles is because interceptors is much more reliable way when you deal human player rather than AI.

ok, fair enough.

No, it is exactly the formula I have pointed. Was verified both in the code and on practice.

When you have 40 worker PP and a P.Processor, the pollution will be 7.
that is 40/2 from processor = 20 - 6 for medium planet > 14/2 = 7.
the outcome is not 40-6=34 / 2 from processor =17/2 = 8.5 (9).

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Re: Comparing Unification with Feudalism for blitz purposes, regular moo

Postby Overlord2 » Tue Aug 18, 2015 5:52 pm

When you have 40 worker PP and a P.Processor, the pollution will be 7.
that is 40/2 from processor = 20 - 6 for medium planet > 14/2 = 7.
the outcome is not 40-6=34 / 2 from processor =17/2 = 8.5 (9).

Your example is unclear, please give all inputs: how many workers on production, race bonuses, government bonus if any and what is mineral richness and planet size.

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Re: Comparing Unification with Feudalism for blitz purposes, regular moo

Postby Rocco » Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:11 pm

allright-

lets consider a basic subt race with LHW and nothing else.
full pop = 24, 12 farmers and 12 workers.
12 workers = 36 PP
Pollution is 36-8 > 28/2 = 14

If you build the PProcessor it will be:
12 workers = 36 PP
Pollution is (36/2)-8 > 10/2 = 5

If you add Aut,Fact it will be:
12 workers = 36 PP + 12 PP
fixed prod = 5 PP
Pollution is (48/2)-8 > 16/2 = 8

Every PP caused by workers is subject pollution incl. Rich HW, Govt, leaders, etc.
Only exempt are fixed prod from AF (5), Robo's (10) and Deep Cores (15) and obviously Recyclo too.
Robotic Factory does count towards pollution (I take it as production is from mechanical workers)

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Darza
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Re: Comparing Unification with Feudalism for blitz purposes, regular moo

Postby Darza » Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:34 pm

Rocco wrote:About pollution: i think pollution is calculated as:
((total production/pollution cleaners) - no pollution prod*nanodis coef.))/2


Well, you need to try very cautious approach. Small numbers in examples, pictures maybe. Ill show you
Say, if you're use 12 pollution generated prod (4 standart 3 prod\pop workers) on a standart meduim planet, where 6 prod are free from pollution - you would have a pollution, using the "verified by code" formula. Thankfully the game use a proper one, and you have no pollution in that very basic example, while using the formula - almost any non-tolerant planet would generate it all the time (well, i hope other arithmetic there was right atleast, i even didnt bothered to read it actually).
Last edited by Darza on Tue Aug 18, 2015 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Rocco
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Re: Comparing Unification with Feudalism for blitz purposes, regular moo

Postby Rocco » Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:41 pm

12 pollution generated prod (4 standart 3 prod\pop workers) on a standart meduim planet, where 6 prod are free from pollution - you would have a pollution ... Thankfully the game use a proper one, and you have no pollution in that very basic example


in your example of 12 prod, you get 3 pollution penalty actually
as is (12-6)/2

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Overlord2
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Re: Comparing Unification with Feudalism for blitz purposes, regular moo

Postby Overlord2 » Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:43 pm

lets consider a basic subt race with LHW and nothing else.
full pop = 24, 12 farmers and 12 workers.
12 workers = 36 PP
Pollution is 36-8 > 28/2 = 14

If you build the PProcessor it will be:
12 workers = 36 PP
Pollution is (36/2)-8 > 10/2 = 5


If you build pollution processor in this example, production output will be 3*12 - (3*12-8)/2/2 = 29
While Pollution will be: (3*12-8)/2/2 = 7
Government non-uni.

If you add autofactory, production output will be: (3+1)*12 +5 - ((3+1)*12-8)/2/2= 43
While Pollution will be: ((3+1)*12-8)/2/2 = 10

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Darza
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Re: Comparing Unification with Feudalism for blitz purposes, regular moo

Postby Darza » Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:52 pm

Rocco wrote:in your example of 12 prod, you get 3 pollution penalty actually
as is (12-6)/2


You did forget the polproc (of course there is a pollution without it, but there also would be pollution with it, with wrong formula).

Watching a video, -pop & -ground is really shooting himself, you need -sci there, its the best choice pick. those 2 are really bad, as you need both values in game.
Got ya, you deliberately playing very suboptimal there to urge a viewer to improve on his own, right? Battle there is a something, almost as a fast edits.
Last edited by Darza on Tue Aug 18, 2015 7:35 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Rocco
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Re: Comparing Unification with Feudalism for blitz purposes, regular moo

Postby Rocco » Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:54 pm

Image

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Overlord2
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Re: Comparing Unification with Feudalism for blitz purposes, regular moo

Postby Overlord2 » Tue Aug 18, 2015 7:11 pm

Edit:
OK, I was wrong. seems like the real formula is: (total prod/pollution cleaners -no pollution prod* nano coef.)/2


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