Androids and Spy dynamics

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Dukinson
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Androids and Spy dynamics

Postby Dukinson » Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:23 am

I've done quite a bit of research on the dynamic of spying but I couldn't find this anywhere. Spying in MOO2 is a measure of technology and, I could be wrong on this second part, population. If that second part is true, does anyone know if androids contribute to your spy networks effectiveness as per normal population?

Also, is there anyone here who can lay out all of the dynamics of spying? I've only managed to find bits and pieces and lost a post made long ago from by a programmer who understood it well.
A cob of corn in every pot, an outpost ship with fuel tanks in every garage, and two command points for every colony!

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Darza
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Re: Androids and Spy dynamics

Postby Darza » Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:06 am

.
Despite its definitely one of most bizarre post i had seen about moo2, actually there is some truth inside it (still very bizarre tho). Spying is a 100 dice roll +- boni affecting it. Government, tech, leaders, and Spies. In case roll +- boni is reaching some needed value - action is happen.
But. It affected by technology level. Of an opponent you're spying. The more fresh tech he have - the better it works. And yes, it also affected by a population, as rolls arent really random, they are generated from a seed number, what is calculated from a game data. So player will have the same result after reload (thats the same for other random used in a calculations of effects, not only spying of course). And that seed is usually generated some turns prior, so it cannot be manipulated easily (it still can, if you have enough saves). Another possibility is mixing moo2 spying with moo1, where spying was much better implemented, as part of Empire production, just as taxes in moo2.

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Dukinson
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Re: Androids and Spy dynamics

Postby Dukinson » Thu Aug 20, 2015 3:13 pm

So no one knows the exact dynamics of spying in this game? And more importantly, do androids function as population in terms of increasing your spy potential. If they do not, this is very important and may make androids an unworthy production item.
A cob of corn in every pot, an outpost ship with fuel tanks in every garage, and two command points for every colony!

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Overlord2
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Re: Androids and Spy dynamics

Postby Overlord2 » Thu Aug 20, 2015 5:45 pm

Not sure what androids have to do with spying, but here is spying mechanichs (reposted from another post):
Before roll for the spying there is roll on assasination of spies. Got no information on that formula. As for the spying chance the formula is the following:
Random attack (0-100) + all offensive bonuses - [Random defense (0-100)+all defensive bonuses]>60 spying is successful; >80 spying is successful and you frame other race; >90 some diplomatic action follows, don't remeber;
For Sabotage formula is the same with the exception that figures are different - 70 and 90.
All offensive/defensive bonuses include all techs as they are, race bonuses, leaders and bonuses from the spies.
The exact bonuses of the spies are available in the following table:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key ... utput=html

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Dukinson
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Re: Androids and Spy dynamics

Postby Dukinson » Thu Aug 20, 2015 10:23 pm

I found this too. I search all over google trying to find a comprehensive examination of the mechanics of spying without complete success. Maybe it is just this simple but I've read a couple points I can't seem to find. First, population effects your defense and offensive spying. A larger empire will have more spying prowess. Second, spyies set up networks. This takes time to do and increases your odds of espionage and sabotage. Networks must be cleaned out like rat nests which also takes time. Maybe this is all wrong but it's strange I read such specific details once upon a time. I'll keep fishing around to see if I can find out more.

I was hoping you programmer types could peal open the code and find out how spying truly works.
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Overlord2
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Re: Androids and Spy dynamics

Postby Overlord2 » Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:58 am

This info is driven from the code.

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Darza
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Re: Androids and Spy dynamics

Postby Darza » Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:30 am

Still waiting for Illuminatis to appear in the tread. Had to re-read the OP a few times, to ensure there was no.

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Rocco
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Re: Androids and Spy dynamics

Postby Rocco » Fri Aug 21, 2015 10:09 am

I have recently looked at the spy code to change sabotage chances in ice.
Although spy code is not overly long, atm I cannot yet read the precise mechanics.
(finding offsets is always easier than a full understanding of logic)

So just some thoughts;

- If spying is indeed dependent on population that it could be established in a hot seat game, where you spy on a opponent that is in possesion of all techs, with x spies when you have 8 pop and then repeat process when you have a higher pop., say 50. Then the chance for success can be compared and a delta will become apparent or not. For now, I would assume no such delta will become visible as it sounds like a strange mechanic.

- Then about "The more fresh tech he have - the better it works."
Sometimes I can have this impression too, but I am not convinced this is really the mechanic.
Say an opponents group of techs is 'A' and the subgroup of techs that I have is 'B'. The techs that I do not have are 'C'.
I assume that, if spy roll has succes the formula for getting a tech is 'pick random tech from C'.
However if you have more succes when there is more fresh tech, then perhaps the formula is 'pick a random tech from A'.
And thus: if you spies now uncovers the secrets of the Laser Cannon, too bad and better luck next time + you get no notification of the event.

- Thirdly the notion that it takes time for spies to set up a network and your odds increase over time. It would mean that if I have x spies assigned to an opponent, my chance of succes current turn is X% and a next turn my chance of succes in that turn is X+(a factor times #turns passed). Sounds like a complicated formula and most likely it is just a misperception of chance. If my chance for succes at T1 is 10% then it is also 10% at T10 (all other being equal). Just the difference is that after one turn the chance that you have seen a succes is 10% and after 10 turns the chance that you have seen a succes is 1-0.9^10 = 65%.

- Rolls and seed number. Indeed the chance of something happening this turns is decided by a roll at 'T-1-X' and I don't know how many turns is X, never tried to test it. It works like that for many game events. But why is the RNG not be fully random but dependent on game factors, or how did you find out?

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Darza
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Re: Androids and Spy dynamics

Postby Darza » Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:13 am

Then about "The more fresh tech he have - the better it works."
Sometimes I can have this impression too, but I am not convinced this is really the mechanic.
Say an opponents group of techs is 'A' and the subgroup of techs that I have is 'B'. The techs that I do not have are 'C'.
I assume that, if spy roll has succes the formula for getting a tech is 'pick random tech from C'.
However if you have more succes when there is more fresh tech, then perhaps the formula is 'pick a random tech from A'.
And thus: if you spies now uncovers the secrets of the Laser Cannon, too bad and better luck next time + you get no notification of the event.
Thats purely a statistical observation from a time, when i had a fun with spy races. You steal the fresh tech next turn it invented, but you need to spend many empty turns stealing some old Biospheres or so after. Problem is what "pick a random tech from A" explain the second, but not the first phenomena. I just suppose it have some "priority list", and chose from it, but not exactly direct from top, but with some roll. Sabotage work roughly the same, as it tend to blow the priciest buildings, not entirely random ones (while it doesnt mean you guaranteed to blow the priciest in case of success).
- Thirdly the notion that it takes time for spies to set up a network and your odds increase over time. It would mean that if I have x spies assigned to an opponent, my chance of succes current turn is X% and a next turn my chance of succes in that turn is X+(a factor times #turns passed). Sounds like a complicated formula and most likely it is just a misperception of chance. If my chance for succes at T1 is 10% then it is also 10% at T10 (all other being equal). Just the difference is that after one turn the chance that you have seen a succes is 10% and after 10 turns the chance that you have seen a succes is 1-0.9^10 = 65%.
Thats a some mish-mash from moo1 most likely. Moo1 spying mechanic could be roughly described as it (and yes, its was interesting, unlike moo2 mechanic, where they dropped everything fancy from it, leaving just some very core about dice roll. Moo1 spying also had a Computer technology levels of sides involved in a formula used. And captured spies could not only "get killed", but also "frame all the network" in case of heavy "outroll" from the defender).
- Rolls and seed number. Indeed the chance of something happening this turns is decided by a roll at 'T-1-X' and I don't know how many turns is X, never tried to test it. It works like that for many game events. But why is the RNG not be fully random but dependent on game factors, or how did you find out?
Thats very easy, because its had been proved in practice. You do another unconnected action at the Seeding turn, and get the different result of random in question as an effect. After you will be able to find that T used for the generation, you could do some actions, and compare the output. Some of the actions cannot be done the same turn, so you could use the more early turns to manipulate it. Hint - in case of random effect occuring at T1 - you know where to look for the Seed.
To clarify - i dont know what exactly used in a seed generation, maybe the general size of population is not used there as it, i just sayd what its indeed could be used in a spy mechanics such weird way. But overall empire output is used in generation of random events, so, while im not sure pop size is used as it there again - its definitely affect the "overall power" somehow, so, with "time travel back enough", and weakening empire output - you could prevent some bad, or cause some good random effect. While that certain value could be of no actual use in generating the Seed itself, and it could be something like food production of races 1&5 ^ prod production of races 2&3 * number of ships in game (just random example). Any why just not to use RNG? Because good RNG is not so easy to write (thats why they are PRNG). And if you will do it "lazy way" - you would get the constant repeating patterns, as you'd have to just pick a number from some pre-set list. Or you could generate that PRNumber. But you need some PRData to generate it. It could be anything, of course, but it need to have some fluctuations, to get that R part. It could be a system time, or game data, or anything else the game can have access too (say sound level settings, as HOMM3 used in some rolls). But in all those cases - player, who know what is using for the generation - can affect it, in theory (surely developers can use less affectable data in case they actually do care about security of process, say some inner CPU data values or so (that doesnt meant they cannot be affected, as its Pseudo still)). So your citizens can demand a Stadium any day you want, returning to moo2.

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Dukinson
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Re: Androids and Spy dynamics

Postby Dukinson » Mon Aug 24, 2015 3:11 pm

I was noting the effects of being spied on by an enemy. Usually they kill a spy much more likely than stealing a tech as they begin to spy on me. It always seems to take many turns before they can manage to steal a tech. This is one of the observations that had me thinking there are spy networks that need to be set up before they can break your defenses enough to steal something. Ofcourse I've piled on several dozen spies on an undefended low spy tech target and stolen something first turn but I always have defense and it always takes time for my enemies to get something from me. Murdered defending spies is always an indicator my defense is too low and soon will be broken.
A cob of corn in every pot, an outpost ship with fuel tanks in every garage, and two command points for every colony!


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