BUILD SYSTEM: QUEUE VS MASS

[KFizzle]

this is basically a question about
which type of build system is better.

essentially there are two systems:
queue build and mass build.

ill explain mass build first:
this is the build system which everyone uses, where you save production on all planets, and you mass build everything whenever you get a lab tech, or a factory tech etc. its pretty much the save production build system, but im gonna call it mass build system for now.

queue build system:
this is where you pop on all planets, while you save production only on main planet in system. when you get rlabs, you build the rlabs in your main planet first, then you use a selection of pop, not all, and use selection of pop to queue build rlabs into each of the other planets one by one. at the same time, a part of your pop not used, techs for other techs such as autos.

there's also a hybrid of this:
you use the mass build or save production system until you get autofacts, after that you use the queue build system. some people use this system as well.

i was just wondering what do you guys think. when i first started moo2 back in 99, i used to pop on all planets till i got rlabs then i used to build rlabs everwhere, later on when i learned about saving production, i started and have been using the mass build system ever since. ive become a big user of it. but then i saw alex|d using his build system, pop a good 85 pop using sublith +prod by turn 99 [check lithovore post in forum], and ive been trying to figure out how in the world he did that.

it baffles me, it baffles me that pk and some other people can super pop by turn 100, and i still havent figured out the secret of super pop. but this build system is a key aspect in that theory of super pop.

depending on which build system you use, you can tech faster and pop faster. so my question: which one would you prefer or use?

this build system pretty much refers to is for putting in techs into colonies when you get them, rlabs/autos/supers/robos etc. not for other stuff such as ships or bbs, everyone saves production for those.

[ALEX|D]

Hmmm do saw the unitol movie ?

http://masteroforion2.blogspot.com/2006 ... nitol.html

U can watch the first turns of unitol ... I think this should answer some questions. U´ll find a t0 save too, so u can try out some things ... !

[KFizzle]

thats where i figured out the queue build system, its pretty nice, i like it, you build and pop both at same time, very useful system and better than save production/mass build system. so ya i like it.

[ALEX|D]

The key to much pop is maximizing ur housing.

So with unitol I´ll try to get 30pp on a planet in 1t so I just lose 1turn housing. Money is an important factor too, to buy all the left 30pp.

And if u buy the 30pp for rlabs it´s also important that u save the next 30pp for the afacs so u have 1t more housing.

[Matthew]

Hmmm do saw the unitol movie ?

http://masteroforion2.blogspot.com/2006 ... nitol.html

U can watch the first turns of unitol ... I think this should answer some questions. U´ll find a t0 save too, so u can try out some things ... !

This is pretty good.

What would be better is if MOO2 had a Save Replay feature like Dawn of War where you could see all the players actions move by move.

I suppose what you could do is have two veteran players both make a movie of the same game. Then you would be able to see it from both sides.

[ALEX|D]

I suppose what you could do is have two veteran players both make a movie of the same game.

Good idea I would like to see how others play ... I think we could all increase our skills ... !

[KFizzle]

woohoo! you know what?

after figuring out the queue build system, and employing it with unisubaqua +1prod, i got 108 pop by turn 100 without using cloners. before i only used to pop 80 only with low techs. now i can tech high and pop high. and it all works! and after tweaking around with it i got it a little bit better and got it down.

my goal in moo2: is to pop at least 100 pop by turn 100 every single game without using cloners. and thanks to alex's queue system i can do that.

now the ultimate goal will be popping 100+ pop using unicreative races. thats something really hard to do.

you know what unisubaqua +1prod is nasty. those regular terran large planets can build fully functional bbs in 8 turns using just autos/robos. no pollution techs at all. thats nasty!

now perfectin' my creative..

[Lavarn]

If I understand what you're asking, I think I use almost exclusively queue build because it seems a lot faster for massing population. My general rule is that if I only have one colonist on a planet, I will do housing (assuming I have built all available production techs like auto factory, robo miners, etc), and as soon as I'm forced to have two or more colonists, I start storing production. So when I first finish building colony bases and my home planet has lots of room, all of the other planets are housing and not storing production.

Btw, I'm also a huge fan of the unisubaqua race. And Alex is right, the +1 prod instead of rich/large hw seems better. I should try that challenge of getting 100 pop by turn 100. Does it require finding some good systems with several large/wet planets? How often can you do it?

[KFizzle]

I should try that challenge of getting 100 pop by turn 100. Does it require finding some good systems with several large/wet planets? How often can you do it?

as much as having good systems, what you really want is just plain multi-planet systems, doesnt matter what type of planets they have.

but with unisubaqua, all wet planets are gonna be like 20 something pop+.
great for storing pop while you house everywhere.

with unisubaqua, its very easy to hit 100+ if you use cloners by turn 100, and you can expand fairly well as well. try hitting 100 with cloners first, and if you can do that, try again only without cloners, and test yourself against your own stats.

ive seen people hit 100+ even 200 without using cloners before, so it can be done. i think the best pop ive seen someone do with unisubaqua without cloners was 140 by turn 100 i think. i forget who it was, but it can be done.

[Matthew]

I usually mass build but next game going to try this Queue building system to see if I can pop faster.

With UniAquaProd is it better to take a system with a 2 large Ocean/Poor planets over a system with 3 small to medium Barren/Abundent planets?

This is the thing that I've been getting confused with.

The Ocean-Poor will store more pop but it will take longer pop and to build with. It would make an good farming colony but will not yield good producion without Autofactories and Robo-Miners.

The Barren/Abundent will build faster but will require more freighters to be built and forces to use your homeworld for farming.

For the starting colony ship which is the better choice?

[KFizzle]

With UniAquaProd is it better to take a system with a 2 large Ocean/Poor planets over a system with 3 small to medium Barren/Abundent planets

with aqua id go for the poor planets simply because theyre great room to store pop. the way you pop is using your home system and first system to pop. you pop on all colony bases while you shift out new pop to new systems, and use new systems as storage while you use first two systems as housing planets.

i like mass build system, simply because i have the ability to build everything in one turn, but with the queue system you can pop better, especially without if you choose to pop without cloners.

if you employ cloners, then it doesnt hurt to use the mass build system, but if you use queue system with cloners you can make even a bigger pop.

so far:
i think the queue system works best with production races, or even democash. if youre unitol or uniaqua +2prod, id definitely use the queue system exclusively, even unisub +2prod id use it. it works great with unisubaqua +1prod too.

the way the queue system works is:
a) you save prod only on main planets
b) pop everywhere else
c) when you get a lab tech/factory tech, you build tech in main planet in 1 turn, and you shift all pop from main planet to A colony base, and build lab tech in 2-3 turns
d) buy lab tech at 1 turn remaining, and shift all pop to next colony base do same thing

mass build system:
a) youre researching rlabs, you need to build rlabs everywhere
b) you want to build them in one turn when you get them
c) you put half pop or equal percentage of pop on all planets in system while you save prod using marine barracks or star base
d) when you get rlabs you just pop them in everywhere and get em built in 1 turn
e) this utilizes the half pop housing system, where at half pop, the growth rate is about 60-100k per turn dependent on planet size
f) regular housing without autofacts, is 100k growth rate on housing planets


both build/popping system works fine, but queue system works best with production races, and works great with democash as well.

for other races, i think id consider saving production till autofacts, and mass building rlabs/autos in 1 turn, rather than spend 3-5 turns on each planet to build rlabs/autos one by one. after that id prolly switch to queue system after getting autofacts everywhere. since housing with autofacts is 200k growth per turn.


another trick i used to use with the mass build system, is that say it takes 10 turns to build marine barracks with one pop, id house for five turns first, make 500k worth of pop, then after five turns, id put two pop on planet to make marine barracks in five turns and save prod that way. this way you save prod and you house a little bit. but putting two pop in to save prod cuts back on tech little bit.

but using mass build system, it works great when you get higher techs like supers/robos, if you have 6 turns left to get tech, quit housing and start saving prod with 2-3 pop on each planet. this way instead of waiting all 13 turns (eta to supers) to build supers on each planet in one turn, you can pop/house half the time and then save prod the other half the time.

i hope this all helps if anything.
so far using queue system, with democash, i was making 285bc per turn with 0 tax by turn 100. democash techs a little bit slow though even though it makes great money. and then virtually has the ability to buy bbs in about 8-10 turns. but its really a pop dependent race, since it makes money only thru extra pop.

[KFizzle]

you know what?

i didnt notice this before, but after siron pointed out something to me about alex's queue system, is that alex uses the queue system, but he also uses it to save production to build rlabs/autos etc.

if you look at his unitol movie, he doesnt only pop, he saves production for rlabs/autos using marine barracks everywhere using queue system.

this way he pops, as well as build rlabs/autos in one turn. he builds his lab/factory techs before he even gets them.

its a little more complex than i thought.

the way ive described queue system is simpler since you dont have to save production anywhere besides main planets, alex's queue system saves production on colony bases as well.

so alex's queue system is even more effective, especially with races such as unitol.

[KFizzle]

here's a save i made using my queue system, since alex's queue system differs a little bit in technique.

turn 102, androids, pop = 136 w/ 9 being in freighters, almost 140 pop..

absolutely no cloners used.

i also included turn 0 save if you like.

http://www.geocities.com/kfizzle/unisubaqua.zip

[Lavarn]

if you look at his unitol movie, he doesnt only pop, he saves production for rlabs/autos using marine barracks everywhere using queue system.

Perhaps watching the tutorial again will clear this up - the first time everything was happening so fast it was hard for me to follow. I'm wondering, if you just finish building colony bases and are teching to research labs, I see 3 possible ways to handle it:

1. Store up exactly enough production on each colony base to build the research lab in one turn when you get it (using only one colonist). So this would be 60 production points minus whatever one colonist can produce in one turn. Then do housing the rest of the time.

2. Store up exactly 30 production points on each colony base and buy the research lab everywhere when you get it at exactly half-built. Again, do housing the rest of the time. This might be difficult if you have a lot of colony bases and not much money, especially if you just used all your money to buy those colony bases.

3. Do housing the whole time and store up no production. Then transfer colonists from your starting planet to help out in building the research lab. This is what I have been doing and is my understanding of what you mean by queue system (correct me if I'm wrong).

[KFizzle]

option 1 you described is the mass build system where you save production everywhere.

option 3 is the queue system where you dont save any production on colony bases. you build when you get the lab techs.

option 2 would be alex's queue system except the way it works is:
say you have 5 planets in your system, you tech on your main home planet, then you house on 3 planets, and you use 2-4 people quick build marine barracks upto 1 turn left on 5th planet, then quit building and switch to housing, and move to next colony in system and repeat saving production with marine barracks.

sometimes you dont get done saving production on all planets when you queue save [thats what ill call alex's system], but you save production on planets with planets that will get the build job done fastest. youll get rlabs researched before youre done saving production everywhere using queue save system.

whenever you use queue system, whether save or build, you always want to buy lab/factory techs as soon as possible to move pop onto next colony to build the next lab/factory techs, to speed up race. so whether you buy at half-built or 1-turn left, you want to maximize your money usage for effectively using the queue system.

so in summary: there's 3 modes of expansion/build systems:
a) mass build system
b) queue build system
c) queue save system

queue save system would prolly be the most effective system.

the queue build/save systems use regular housing, while the mass build system uses half pop housing.

it all depends how you play, what race you use, and your style etc.