I'm hearing a lot of people on this forum praising Lithovore as such a cool trait. I'm here to ask why everyone thinks that.
Hard math:
At the very start, and not counting pollution or rich homeworld, a lithovore race gets +1 prod per worker (3-2) for shifting its farmers to workers. That's the equivalent of +1 Production (a 3 point special) for 10 points. So Lith is probably not a blitzer's trait.
Less mathematical analysis:
Later in the game, a strong empire should be able to feed their entire population from a couple of Terran or Gaia worlds which aren't interested in producing stuff (entirely possible, in fact, that some lucky empire gets ahold of a Gaia Native world). At this point, Lith becomes a liability, because it's eating up (pardon the pun, if you will) production that could be going towards ships. (Even on an Ultra-Rich Robominer+Autofac world, 11 prod per worker, you still lose 1/11 of your production to food, which could mean you spend an extra turn or two on that Titan you're building.)
Meanwhile, there's no real production gain from Lithovore. The worlds you were farming on could be turned towards research...but frankly, for 10 points? +1 Research and Democracy will do much more than freeing up farmers will.
Is there something I'm missing in this analysis?
Lithovores: WHY?
The advantages of Lithovore:
By freeing up half of your workers from farming you can:
Double your Research in the beginning or
Increase your Industry by almost the same amount (-Pollution)
Your choice(how you choose to reacllocate the workers is up to you)
It is well worth 10 picks from this perspective!
It is not specialization of Industry or Science, like Unification or Democracy is, but can go either way...
It is also useful to have either Unification and Democracy in addition to being a Lithovore. Min/max all the way baby!!!
By freeing up half of your workers from farming you can:
Double your Research in the beginning or
Increase your Industry by almost the same amount (-Pollution)
Your choice(how you choose to reacllocate the workers is up to you)
It is well worth 10 picks from this perspective!
It is not specialization of Industry or Science, like Unification or Democracy is, but can go either way...
It is also useful to have either Unification and Democracy in addition to being a Lithovore. Min/max all the way baby!!!
It's probably better to use Lith as a tech race than a production race. Demo-Lith seems like it would be viable. You would be able to become much more advanced in the early game. Autofactories, Robo-Miners and other production boosting techs can help to make up for the lost production.
The biggest downside is that it would be vulnerable to spying so you would need to research the spying techs early on and have one colony repeat build spies to use as defensive agents.
The biggest downside is that it would be vulnerable to spying so you would need to research the spying techs early on and have one colony repeat build spies to use as defensive agents.
Last edited by Matthew on Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Lithovores: WHY?
Hi Ramidel,
You mention losing 1/11 of your production to food on a high production world. You lost me here, there is no production diverted to food with lithovore as there is for, say, cybernetic. Did I misunderstand?
Lithovore is one of the few ways demo can be competetive. I prefer demo/lith/large rich HW the most. On turn 0, it's good for 24 PP. That's not bad for a race that can also take those same 8 pop and get 36 RP. The "power" production races will out-produce it (uni/tol +1 prod - 30PP, uni/aqua/+2/LRHW - 35PP), but they start out with half the research potential or less (15 and 18 RP). Combine being able to put the entire rich HW pop on production with that research capacity, and you can pump out 3 colony ships by turn 50 or 52 in a pre-warp game. That's a decent base from which to start an empire, especially given that it's with a demo race.
In a galaxy liberally seeded with wet planets, though, either of the two production races will generally win, quite easily.
The main reason I like lith, though, is that it does not NEED wet planets to compete; they're a bonus, not a necessity. Just give me a fair number of 4-pop or better planets that aren't hvy-g and/or ultra poor, and I can put up a fight, because I can make every unit of pop contribute directly toward research or production rather than food. If my map sector is made up of nothing but radiated, toxic, and barren planets, I won't mind a whole lot, beyond the $$ penalties.
Give that same map to a uni/tol or uni/aqua, and they can get bogged down a bit trying to feed everyone...without a little help from the map in the form of farmable planets, they can be in a bit of trouble (though a skilled player who enjoys the challenge and is willing to play through it can adapt to the situation and still come out on top).
Sometimes players in such a situation will complain about the map, which makes me chuckle a bit at the irony, because my "inferior" race would likely have been able to deal with it (the power production races have weaknesses just like any other races, but sometimes players confuse a racial weakness/need with map inequity. OK, OK, I'm off my soap box now
).
Siron also has been known to play demo/lith, but generally I've seen him take an arti homeworld, which is a completely different strategy. So he's probably got a few thoughts on the matter that I missed.
Welcome!
-Gusset
You mention losing 1/11 of your production to food on a high production world. You lost me here, there is no production diverted to food with lithovore as there is for, say, cybernetic. Did I misunderstand?
Lithovore is one of the few ways demo can be competetive. I prefer demo/lith/large rich HW the most. On turn 0, it's good for 24 PP. That's not bad for a race that can also take those same 8 pop and get 36 RP. The "power" production races will out-produce it (uni/tol +1 prod - 30PP, uni/aqua/+2/LRHW - 35PP), but they start out with half the research potential or less (15 and 18 RP). Combine being able to put the entire rich HW pop on production with that research capacity, and you can pump out 3 colony ships by turn 50 or 52 in a pre-warp game. That's a decent base from which to start an empire, especially given that it's with a demo race.
In a galaxy liberally seeded with wet planets, though, either of the two production races will generally win, quite easily.
The main reason I like lith, though, is that it does not NEED wet planets to compete; they're a bonus, not a necessity. Just give me a fair number of 4-pop or better planets that aren't hvy-g and/or ultra poor, and I can put up a fight, because I can make every unit of pop contribute directly toward research or production rather than food. If my map sector is made up of nothing but radiated, toxic, and barren planets, I won't mind a whole lot, beyond the $$ penalties.
Give that same map to a uni/tol or uni/aqua, and they can get bogged down a bit trying to feed everyone...without a little help from the map in the form of farmable planets, they can be in a bit of trouble (though a skilled player who enjoys the challenge and is willing to play through it can adapt to the situation and still come out on top).
Sometimes players in such a situation will complain about the map, which makes me chuckle a bit at the irony, because my "inferior" race would likely have been able to deal with it (the power production races have weaknesses just like any other races, but sometimes players confuse a racial weakness/need with map inequity. OK, OK, I'm off my soap box now
).Siron also has been known to play demo/lith, but generally I've seen him take an arti homeworld, which is a completely different strategy. So he's probably got a few thoughts on the matter that I missed.
Welcome!
-Gusset
ive been messing around with lithovore races for some time now lately.
in fact, lithovore is my favorite pick of all the picks in the game. i love it just for the fact that it frees up completely all your farmers to do whatever else whether research or production.
think this way: using home planet stats
without uni or aquatic:
#famers = 50%
with either uni or aquatic:
#farmers = 33%
with both uni and aquatic:
#farmers = 22%
with just lithovore:
#farmers = 0%
obviously lithovore has one big advantage over all other race picks: the idea that it frees up all pop which as a result means, lithovore techs fastest than any other pick. all people can be used to research or build.
of course, the biggest drawback of lithovore is that it doesnt increase pop limit on planets, it just frees it up. but if you think from these percentages point: if lithovore frees up 50% of pop from food, then even though youre short on pop, youre really just theoretically 1/3 short of other races, and even then you can use all pop to do either research or production.
lithovore races can expand. ive successfully gotten at least 75-80 with either demolith or unilith, races with no other pop modifiers, by turn 100, and sublith can pop rather well as it is without expanding.
there are lots of good lithovore races:
they are:
1) demolith with either rich large or arti hw; this is the best tech race overall in moo2
2) unilith with either arti hw or +1prod & large hw; this is a balanced tech/production race, it can expand very easily and it builds good, it can build a full functional bb by turn 60ish; id choose this race if you arent sure about the demolith spying disadvantages; but this race cant buy anything like demolith and compared to demo, this race only has prod bonus where as demo has sci and money bonus, but this race does have good spy defense.
3) sublith large with +50gro or arti; this is prolly the 2nd best tech race out there, it pops very well due to sub bonus, has good spy defense, key to this race is pop, the more the merrier
4) tolvore; this race can either build or tech, but its prob is that even though its tolerant it doesnt have any production bonus and even though its lithovore, it doesnt have any research bonus or as good pop bonus as subterranean. otherwise this is a good dict race by itself. in fact, if you choose to play feudal with non-blitz tactics, this race is your best feudal bet.
5) crealith rich; this is a cute creative race, though not one of the best creative race out there, its still a fun race to play and should be mentioned. this race's early production bonus and early tech advantage starts drying up past turn 50ish, otherwise i havent tested its blitz ability yet, i should do that
6) telelith rich large; ive tested out this race once, but i cant play it right, supposedly people who use this race, does a turn 40 nuke cruiser blitz, but otherwise it can get a fully functional bb up by turn 70ish.
7) lith +2res arti large; this is a dict tech race like demolith except with good spy defense. it seems like fun race, but i rather stick with unilith or sublith. or just demolith.
i think thats all there is i can say about litho races and litho. for now at least.
in fact, lithovore is my favorite pick of all the picks in the game. i love it just for the fact that it frees up completely all your farmers to do whatever else whether research or production.
think this way: using home planet stats
without uni or aquatic:
#famers = 50%
with either uni or aquatic:
#farmers = 33%
with both uni and aquatic:
#farmers = 22%
with just lithovore:
#farmers = 0%
obviously lithovore has one big advantage over all other race picks: the idea that it frees up all pop which as a result means, lithovore techs fastest than any other pick. all people can be used to research or build.
of course, the biggest drawback of lithovore is that it doesnt increase pop limit on planets, it just frees it up. but if you think from these percentages point: if lithovore frees up 50% of pop from food, then even though youre short on pop, youre really just theoretically 1/3 short of other races, and even then you can use all pop to do either research or production.
lithovore races can expand. ive successfully gotten at least 75-80 with either demolith or unilith, races with no other pop modifiers, by turn 100, and sublith can pop rather well as it is without expanding.
there are lots of good lithovore races:
they are:
1) demolith with either rich large or arti hw; this is the best tech race overall in moo2
2) unilith with either arti hw or +1prod & large hw; this is a balanced tech/production race, it can expand very easily and it builds good, it can build a full functional bb by turn 60ish; id choose this race if you arent sure about the demolith spying disadvantages; but this race cant buy anything like demolith and compared to demo, this race only has prod bonus where as demo has sci and money bonus, but this race does have good spy defense.
3) sublith large with +50gro or arti; this is prolly the 2nd best tech race out there, it pops very well due to sub bonus, has good spy defense, key to this race is pop, the more the merrier
4) tolvore; this race can either build or tech, but its prob is that even though its tolerant it doesnt have any production bonus and even though its lithovore, it doesnt have any research bonus or as good pop bonus as subterranean. otherwise this is a good dict race by itself. in fact, if you choose to play feudal with non-blitz tactics, this race is your best feudal bet.
5) crealith rich; this is a cute creative race, though not one of the best creative race out there, its still a fun race to play and should be mentioned. this race's early production bonus and early tech advantage starts drying up past turn 50ish, otherwise i havent tested its blitz ability yet, i should do that
6) telelith rich large; ive tested out this race once, but i cant play it right, supposedly people who use this race, does a turn 40 nuke cruiser blitz, but otherwise it can get a fully functional bb up by turn 70ish.
7) lith +2res arti large; this is a dict tech race like demolith except with good spy defense. it seems like fun race, but i rather stick with unilith or sublith. or just demolith.
i think thats all there is i can say about litho races and litho. for now at least.
Lithovore Strategies
you know what? since we're talking about lithovore as it is, id like to talk about some lithovore strategies, and ask people how do they use their lithovores?
by default, i consider demolith and unilith the best lithovore races, as they build and tech fastest.
unilith +1prod has 6 prod and builds everything they tech just like that like any other production race, and it techs moderately fast, while demolith rich large techs extremely fast, and buys all its buildings with money. but of course, their biggest advantage is that theyre not slowed down by bad morale of having no marine barracks. which helps in expanding faster.
typically, so far, in some of my testplays with them, i chose to get cloners first then supers, i ended up having 80 pop by turn 100, and got androids between turn 100-110 with cloners first. i havent applied other tactics yet, but it would seem logical with these two races, to either get androids or terraforming for its own good. typically id get android workers since that seems like a better choice for me and you can double pop that way and use regular pop for teching and use robots to do all the work. great for monster worlds as well. or all the heavy g urich planets or rich planets.
one thing i noticed, as long as you are playing lithovore, and you have at least five base prod on your home world, that means rich homeworld or univore, you can easily build a bb by turn 70ish with both nuke and laser techs. if you had a wh, building a bb and attacking someone would prolly be crealith's best bet, cause otherwise theyre hard to survive with.
but besides lithovore's ability to tech fast, and have a bb ready by turn 70, what im really concerned about is sublith specifically, and tolvore.
typical variants of the sublith race is artifacts, +50gro, and +1prod.
i think i would had loved +1prod variant most, and it would make more production than tolvore, both since it has more pop and better production with adequate pollution techs, but, it takes almost 40-50 turns to get cloners with +1prod sublith, and in that 40 turns compared +50gro sublith it really puts itself in a crutch. you see sublith really like a democash race, is dependent on pop growth. sublith cant tech or build unless it has steady fast pop, and for the 10 picks lithovore uses, id expect a good pop right away to utilize the race the right way.
all production races can pop easily since they prod better, but sublith +1prod doesnt prod as good as a uni race, really still more of a tech race. and being a tech race, i think +50gro sublith has the best chances in terms of statistics. of course the +1prod difference could make a huge difference in terms of day and night in a dict game, but still, +50gro for the first 40-50 turns getting cloners eventually helps tech faster down the road, when getting supers. in fact, you can get androids with sublith by turn 100-110 like demolith.
but at the same token, sublith cant really expand like demolith or unilith, i think it would need rich homeworld to do that, but even if it had rich homeworld, then it would have no growth bonus or +1prod bonus and it has the problem with building marine barracks on all new colonies.
and then, there's tolvore.
tolvore is a great race, it has no pollution, and it needs no food. it can clean build, and it can tech fast. but it doesnt have any production bonus besides clean build. i mean its better to get +2prod than tolerant, so you could build faster and get pol procs or something. but in terms of teching, tolvore is slower at teching than sublith (gro/arti), but it can expand a little bit better than sublith.
my question is:
how would you play sublith or tolvore? would you tech first? or expand? would you use sublith in a uni game? what about non uni game? would you choose it over demo? if you had a choice between demo or uni lith, which one would you choose? and if you had a choice between sub or tolvore, which one would you choose?
how would you play youre lithovore? any lithovore.
by default, i consider demolith and unilith the best lithovore races, as they build and tech fastest.
unilith +1prod has 6 prod and builds everything they tech just like that like any other production race, and it techs moderately fast, while demolith rich large techs extremely fast, and buys all its buildings with money. but of course, their biggest advantage is that theyre not slowed down by bad morale of having no marine barracks. which helps in expanding faster.
typically, so far, in some of my testplays with them, i chose to get cloners first then supers, i ended up having 80 pop by turn 100, and got androids between turn 100-110 with cloners first. i havent applied other tactics yet, but it would seem logical with these two races, to either get androids or terraforming for its own good. typically id get android workers since that seems like a better choice for me and you can double pop that way and use regular pop for teching and use robots to do all the work. great for monster worlds as well. or all the heavy g urich planets or rich planets.
one thing i noticed, as long as you are playing lithovore, and you have at least five base prod on your home world, that means rich homeworld or univore, you can easily build a bb by turn 70ish with both nuke and laser techs. if you had a wh, building a bb and attacking someone would prolly be crealith's best bet, cause otherwise theyre hard to survive with.
but besides lithovore's ability to tech fast, and have a bb ready by turn 70, what im really concerned about is sublith specifically, and tolvore.
typical variants of the sublith race is artifacts, +50gro, and +1prod.
i think i would had loved +1prod variant most, and it would make more production than tolvore, both since it has more pop and better production with adequate pollution techs, but, it takes almost 40-50 turns to get cloners with +1prod sublith, and in that 40 turns compared +50gro sublith it really puts itself in a crutch. you see sublith really like a democash race, is dependent on pop growth. sublith cant tech or build unless it has steady fast pop, and for the 10 picks lithovore uses, id expect a good pop right away to utilize the race the right way.
all production races can pop easily since they prod better, but sublith +1prod doesnt prod as good as a uni race, really still more of a tech race. and being a tech race, i think +50gro sublith has the best chances in terms of statistics. of course the +1prod difference could make a huge difference in terms of day and night in a dict game, but still, +50gro for the first 40-50 turns getting cloners eventually helps tech faster down the road, when getting supers. in fact, you can get androids with sublith by turn 100-110 like demolith.
but at the same token, sublith cant really expand like demolith or unilith, i think it would need rich homeworld to do that, but even if it had rich homeworld, then it would have no growth bonus or +1prod bonus and it has the problem with building marine barracks on all new colonies.
and then, there's tolvore.
tolvore is a great race, it has no pollution, and it needs no food. it can clean build, and it can tech fast. but it doesnt have any production bonus besides clean build. i mean its better to get +2prod than tolerant, so you could build faster and get pol procs or something. but in terms of teching, tolvore is slower at teching than sublith (gro/arti), but it can expand a little bit better than sublith.
my question is:
how would you play sublith or tolvore? would you tech first? or expand? would you use sublith in a uni game? what about non uni game? would you choose it over demo? if you had a choice between demo or uni lith, which one would you choose? and if you had a choice between sub or tolvore, which one would you choose?
how would you play youre lithovore? any lithovore.
Re: Lithovores: WHY?
...hm. I'm still getting used to the patch. Prepatch Lithovore did work like that ^_^Hi Ramidel,
You mention losing 1/11 of your production to food on a high production world. You lost me here, there is no production diverted to food with lithovore as there is for, say, cybernetic. Did I misunderstand?
Now, unilith is one thing I'll look at as bananas, because the farming bonus goes to waste.
Crealith...uh...no. You simply have no techspeed, and also, one of creative's advantages is that it helps you get around your problems. (Biospheres -and- hydrofarms, for instance...but liths need no food.) Lithovores can't make best use of Creative, as I've discovered.
Now, I'm going to share an ancient secret, grasshoppa: Subterranean makes Lith obsolete farming efficiency wise...particularly if it's not a subart combo.
Subterraneans do not, ever, need biospheres, so Subs can get hydrofarms. Subterraneans have, at the start, one Terran world that's either Rich or Abundant (psst, it's called a homeworld). Subs can have -all- their farmers on that one world.
Between one non-production world and +2 food per world, Subs can feed their people. Four picks cheaper than Lith. Yes, you lose the superspeed battleship, and yes, you do need to put -a- planet to farming, but you can, say, play Unisub rather than Lithovore at two more picks, and you've got -all- your needs satisfied.
(Before anyone -mentions- Sub population overcrowding the food supply: Not until you're in a position to deal with it, it doesn't. Worlds don't grow that fast unless you're Cloning, and if you find that your sector of the galaxy is Mineral Rich to the point of obscenity, you are not going to be cloning, you are going to be building ships. Thank you.)
If you want to play a total-ship-blitz race, you are probably better off focusing on production, damning research anyway, and trying to win by momentum (telepath anyone?). Lith does not help at all if you're capturing colonies.
Re: Lithovores: WHY?
Subterranean is one of the more powerful picks in the game...I don't think anybody here will disagree with that. But sub pop still needs food, so I don't see why sub makes lith obsolete. The combination of the two picks is a very powerful one (with 4 picks spent on a large homeworld and some sort of other bonus), which some would say is the best non-unification race you can play. Ahhhh, sub-lith...this is bringing back memories.Now, I'm going to share an ancient secret, grasshoppa: Subterranean makes Lith obsolete farming efficiency wise...particularly if it's not a subart combo.
Subterraneans do not, ever, need biospheres, so Subs can get hydrofarms. Subterraneans have, at the start, one Terran world that's either Rich or Abundant (psst, it's called a homeworld). Subs can have -all- their farmers on that one world.
OK, I won't mention it, since you already didBetween one non-production world and +2 food per world, Subs can feed their people. Four picks cheaper than Lith. Yes, you lose the superspeed battleship, and yes, you do need to put -a- planet to farming, but you can, say, play Unisub rather than Lithovore at two more picks, and you've got -all- your needs satisfied.
(Before anyone -mentions- Sub population overcrowding the food supply: Not until you're in a position to deal with it, it doesn't. Worlds don't grow that fast unless you're Cloning, and if you find that your sector of the galaxy is Mineral Rich to the point of obscenity, you are not going to be cloning, you are going to be building ships. Thank you.)
Again, sub is an excellent pick, because it has a large impact on population capacity. But I have to disagree with you: worlds do grow fast even without cloning if you are using housing colonies. If you just let natural growth be your rate of population growth, and don't see a benefit of taking sub until later on, you're effectively playing a 14 pick race for more of the game than you should be. If you're going to spend 6 picks on sub, you need to take advantage of it as early as possible to get a benefit from it. 6 picks is not well spent if it does not help you until later in the game (well, against the AI it might be OK, but against a competent human opponent you would find yourself considerably behind).
Not arguing with you about the benefits of sub (again, sub rocks, pardon the pun
) just pointing out that all that extra pop needs to be fed. The benefit is that you can have all that pop in the first place, and like most other picks, there's a side cost in that 1/2 - 1/3 of them will need to be farming.-Gusset
Re: Lithovores: WHY?
OK, I won't mention it, since you already did
Again, sub is an excellent pick, because it has a large impact on population capacity. But I have to disagree with you: worlds do grow fast even without cloning if you are using housing colonies. If you just let natural growth be your rate of population growth, and don't see a benefit of taking sub until later on, you're effectively playing a 14 pick race for more of the game than you should be. If you're going to spend 6 picks on sub, you need to take advantage of it as early as possible to get a benefit from it. 6 picks is not well spent if it does not help you until later in the game (well, against the AI it might be OK, but against a competent human opponent you would find yourself considerably behind).
Not arguing with you about the benefits of sub (again, sub rocks, pardon the pun ) just pointing out that all that extra pop needs to be fed. The benefit is that you can have all that pop in the first place, and like most other picks, there's a side cost in that 1/2 - 1/3 of them will need to be farming.
-Gusset
Should have been more clear:
With Subs, more of your early population can fit on one wet world and can farm. Terran worlds are high-pop anyway, so this is magnified. That's the edge of the Sub. The weakness of some Farming setups is that you'd need to farm on worlds you want to use for something else.
You do -not- lose out much by farming, in the sense that a research build creates as much research or more without Lith than with. (If you're farming on a big production world, you are doing something wrong.)
Also, Subs never need biospheres, and so they will be able to use hydrofarms, which are sweet tools in the early game, even if biospheres are more important later. This helps speed your growth by freeing up a farmer per world, at a negligible research cost.
In short: I see a benefit in using sub but not quite the same benefit as you do. I take advantage of it in an unbalanced way (when I use it), blunting some of its strengths to create other strengths.
Again, sub is an excellent pick, because it has a large impact on population capacity. But I have to disagree with you: worlds do grow fast even without cloning if you are using housing colonies. If you just let natural growth be your rate of population growth, and don't see a benefit of taking sub until later on, you're effectively playing a 14 pick race for more of the game than you should be. If you're going to spend 6 picks on sub, you need to take advantage of it as early as possible to get a benefit from it. 6 picks is not well spent if it does not help you until later in the game (well, against the AI it might be OK, but against a competent human opponent you would find yourself considerably behind).
Not arguing with you about the benefits of sub (again, sub rocks, pardon the pun
) just pointing out that all that extra pop needs to be fed. The benefit is that you can have all that pop in the first place, and like most other picks, there's a side cost in that 1/2 - 1/3 of them will need to be farming.-Gusset
Should have been more clear:
With Subs, more of your early population can fit on one wet world and can farm. Terran worlds are high-pop anyway, so this is magnified. That's the edge of the Sub. The weakness of some Farming setups is that you'd need to farm on worlds you want to use for something else.
You do -not- lose out much by farming, in the sense that a research build creates as much research or more without Lith than with. (If you're farming on a big production world, you are doing something wrong.)
Also, Subs never need biospheres, and so they will be able to use hydrofarms, which are sweet tools in the early game, even if biospheres are more important later. This helps speed your growth by freeing up a farmer per world, at a negligible research cost.
In short: I see a benefit in using sub but not quite the same benefit as you do. I take advantage of it in an unbalanced way (when I use it), blunting some of its strengths to create other strengths.
To be more clear:
Your proposed hydros are junk. Almost noone considers them. 2BC maintenance simply hurts - even for sub. There is only one race where I would take them. Thats Demo Sub art hw. But thats just a fun race. Period.
Visit kali chat server and show us your sub-hydro strat. I will play lith.
Your proposed hydros are junk. Almost noone considers them. 2BC maintenance simply hurts - even for sub. There is only one race where I would take them. Thats Demo Sub art hw. But thats just a fun race. Period.
Visit kali chat server and show us your sub-hydro strat. I will play lith.
Will show you a lot of my strategies. ^_^To be more clear:
Your proposed hydros are junk. Almost noone considers them. 2BC maintenance simply hurts - even for sub. There is only one race where I would take them. Thats Demo Sub art hw. But thats just a fun race. Period.
Visit kali chat server and show us your sub-hydro strat. I will play lith.
I meant you should simply PLAY against us.
I prefer to discuss on the galaxy map.
I remember a discussion with someone who never played us before. He wrote me several dozens emails about his superior strategies. Then he had 3 games with us....and was never seen again.
Thats the reason I avoid too long discussions with players I havent played yet.
I prefer to discuss on the galaxy map.
I remember a discussion with someone who never played us before. He wrote me several dozens emails about his superior strategies. Then he had 3 games with us....and was never seen again.
Thats the reason I avoid too long discussions with players I havent played yet.
Re: Lithovores: WHY?
At game start, if the only race pick one takes is lithovore, the 8 pop units you start with can produce either 15 PP or 24 RP. 10 picks spent on sub and a LRHW can produce 14 PP or 12 RP , or if LAHW is taken instead, 10 PP or 20 RP. That difference is entirely due to the need for farmers. In the early going, it doesn't matter if you're subterranean or not...you only start out with 8 pop, and sub has zero impact until you've got enough pop to exceed the "normal" (read: non-sub) pop capacity of your planets.Should have been more clear:
With Subs, more of your early population can fit on one wet world and can farm. Terran worlds are high-pop anyway, so this is magnified. That's the edge of the Sub. The weakness of some Farming setups is that you'd need to farm on worlds you want to use for something else.
You do -not- lose out much by farming, in the sense that a research build creates as much research or more without Lith than with. (If you're farming on a big production world, you are doing something wrong.)
Eventually a sub race, if played competently, will be able to take advantage of hordes of additional population, and if an empire has enough nice wet planets to farm on, that extra pop will serve it very well indeed. But in general, sub races start out slower because the benefit of those 6 picks takes a while to kick in. Sometimes, that slower start is enough to lose the game.
Obviously any of us that has them available will be spending 10 more race picks, which will of course have an impact; unification will have the biggest impact because it does double duty helping farming as well as production. And I'm not here to tell you that lithovore is the be-all-end-all of racial picks; I play lith almose exclusively and I still lose plenty of games to non-lith races played by folks on this board.
I'm only taking exception to your Shaolin "grasshoppa" ancient secret that sub makes lith obsolete from a farming perspective. It doesn't. Sub is a great pick, but if anything, it partners better with lithovore than with any other racial pick, because otherwise all that extra pop needs to be fed. (Note: that last sentence leaves room for debate, especially from the uni/aqua/sub combo perspective.)
-Gusset
I know what you meant, and I'll see how our games go. Though I do have a confession to make:I meant you should simply PLAY against us.
I prefer to discuss on the galaxy map.
I remember a discussion with someone who never played us before. He wrote me several dozens emails about his superior strategies. Then he had 3 games with us....and was never seen again.
Thats the reason I avoid too long discussions with players I havent played yet.
Tested my strategy against myself, and it lost against another of my strategies repeatedly. So that's one down the wastebin. (Remind me never again to use my local bunch to refine my strategies.)
See you on the field, win or lose! (If you want to set up a time for a duel, PM me.)
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