I thought it might be nice to start a thread containing people's thoughts on what race picks go good, or go poorly, with particular game settings.
This will probably result in some spirited discussion, and perhaps the newer players around will be able to wade through the discussion and pick up on one or three finer points of the game.
It also might be a good way of determining how to equalize a game between a veteran and a new player...if a new player wants to play against a veteran, perhaps the new player could suggest a setup and limitation, so that both players can enjoy a challenging game.
As a fairly obvious example of the sorts of things I'm talking about: the +50 attack pick (4 points) does not go well in a two player game in a pre-warp huge galaxy with no wormholes. This is because by the time contact occurs in such a setup, your opponent will probably have out-developed you enough that the combat bonus won't be enough of an advantage. If the opponent spent those 4 race picks on something like a production or research or population bonus, they will likely be significantly bigger and technologically advanced, and would meet you in battle with many more ships.
-Gusset
Race pick strategies and game settings
Last edited by Gusset on Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Galaxy ages (pre-warp, average tech, and post warp...I have not thought this through for advanced tech games)
My personal findings: the higher the starting tech level, the greater the advantage in taking a production race.
In an average tech game, where all players are given colony ship technology and one colony ship, the production race is better off than a tech race. Free tech to a production race is a bigger boost than the free colony ship to the tech race. In a post-warp game, it's even bigger, because there's free autofactory and research lab tech given to everyone.
I do not really know if a pre-warp setup actually favors a well played technology race over a production race, or if it is merely "equal". I am quite confident, however, that at the very least, production races do not have the dominance in pre-warp games that they do in average or post-warp.
I don't know for sure how this applies to the creative race pick, however my guess is that creative has the best chance of success in an average tech setting.
-Gusset
My personal findings: the higher the starting tech level, the greater the advantage in taking a production race.
In an average tech game, where all players are given colony ship technology and one colony ship, the production race is better off than a tech race. Free tech to a production race is a bigger boost than the free colony ship to the tech race. In a post-warp game, it's even bigger, because there's free autofactory and research lab tech given to everyone.
I do not really know if a pre-warp setup actually favors a well played technology race over a production race, or if it is merely "equal". I am quite confident, however, that at the very least, production races do not have the dominance in pre-warp games that they do in average or post-warp.
I don't know for sure how this applies to the creative race pick, however my guess is that creative has the best chance of success in an average tech setting.
-Gusset
Usually I spend all my Racepicks into economic like Prod tol sub aqua ... !
This is a good idea in nonwh large and huge maps on pre or avrg / 1on1 & xways.
On xways with whs I prefer full attention to economics too, execption omni is not bannd, then I pick usually omni to prevent from blitzers. Paying full attention to economic is good if u can build ur empire, without being interrupted, for ~70turns (but who can be sure in a wh game
).
But the more important decision imho is about t40, when u usually reached autofacs, then u have to decide between (1) teching for wartechs and heading up for others to includ them to ur empire or (2) u just teching for soil/cloners and then supers.
Both decisions have theyre pros and cons.
If u decide to tech to wartech u need to eat another player around t80-90, if he had decided to tech to supers, its important that u gain good techs like supers robos ... and the pop/systems u´ll conquer r needed too.
If u decide to tech for supers u need NAP or u just need to hope not to be interrupted by someone who decided to tech to wartechs
!
If a wartecher could eat a supertecher ~fast than the wartecher has better chances to win the game, than another supertecher who wasn´t interrupted by another one. But eating another player fast is more hard than teching up to supers.
The earlyer u think u need to fight the more better r warracepicks. For example on advanced game u usually have much earlier war.
But u need a lot expierience to gain a good feeling to be able to reckon all these facts ... !
This is a good idea in nonwh large and huge maps on pre or avrg / 1on1 & xways.
On xways with whs I prefer full attention to economics too, execption omni is not bannd, then I pick usually omni to prevent from blitzers. Paying full attention to economic is good if u can build ur empire, without being interrupted, for ~70turns (but who can be sure in a wh game
).But the more important decision imho is about t40, when u usually reached autofacs, then u have to decide between (1) teching for wartechs and heading up for others to includ them to ur empire or (2) u just teching for soil/cloners and then supers.
Both decisions have theyre pros and cons.
If u decide to tech to wartech u need to eat another player around t80-90, if he had decided to tech to supers, its important that u gain good techs like supers robos ... and the pop/systems u´ll conquer r needed too.
If u decide to tech for supers u need NAP or u just need to hope not to be interrupted by someone who decided to tech to wartechs
!If a wartecher could eat a supertecher ~fast than the wartecher has better chances to win the game, than another supertecher who wasn´t interrupted by another one. But eating another player fast is more hard than teching up to supers.
The earlyer u think u need to fight the more better r warracepicks. For example on advanced game u usually have much earlier war.
But u need a lot expierience to gain a good feeling to be able to reckon all these facts ... !
-
StepNRazor
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4way games.
Prewarp:
WH's out
I have had good results with SubAqua Lrg Rich these and Aqua Arti Lrg Rich +3picks optional.
This setup tends to be to slow for Tol and Creative.
Tech races like DemoLith+3 optional, SubLithLrgArti, UnLithLrgArti can race to droids safely.
When WH's are in there is always a chance of a tele blitzer or omni blitzer.
Tele does a fair job of tech stealing.
So the tech races migth not want to race to droids in such cases but race to soem battle tech 1st like C3 or Neutron scanner level fusion beams the scanner is helpful data.
Average:
wow it is wide open here on what to pick so many things can work or fail.
Lets start with wh out.
Big pop is a key compenent.
Tol's Subs' Aqua's and SubAqua's use either many colonies or larger colonies.
Blitzers look for pop races to consume,
Tech races look to scence for droids and or teraform.
So these are the 3 main Arch Types.
Tol's expand for mass colonies to hace lots of r-labs supers for tech and some UR's to crank BB or income taxes.
Aqua's also go for some fast cs producting and hope for soem wet worlds to have nice rp/prod.
SubAqua's are a bit slower but catch up fast and have great late game potentail.
Sub's build fewer cs and are slow starters after robo's the grow well but it can be to late, this pick should be practed and you might try early hydro now n then and soils are a must.
Tech races have good initial and final rp's mid game rp tends to drop when the go to expand. The plan is to have superior weapon systems on your ships when you attack.
Blitzer will go battle techs and not tech Supers, they try to come at arround turn 75-80 and will have 1-2 BB depending on race picks, (note I have seen 3 BB show up arround then byn non blitz race that had bad sector but a good sys to land orriginal cs) I have seen a fudal bltzer run a 4 way by t45 with no wh. So nowh is not a safe guard vs blitz, omni isn't either The map top top bottom is not that long two three op's tops gets you into enemy from top to bottom. Side to side is a longer path.
For this set up I think.
UniAquaLrgRich+2prod-shipDef Rep or
UniAquaLrgRichArti+1prod-shipDef Rep
are most effective to handle most situations; bad map, early blitzer contact, good map colones.
With wh in more war techs is recomended before going supers and perhaps a war race picks or two.
For this set up I think.
UniAquaLrgRich+1prod+20Off-spyRep or
UniAquaLrg+1prodWL -spyRep
are most effective to handle most situations; bad map, early blitzer contact, good map colones.
I have had good results with WL, WL+50 needs soem practice WL+TransD needs even more but both are fun.
You have to have some flexabilitity in your race depending on your map. You expansion and tech tree should change depending on the map. If you have say a auqa and dont find any wet world getting clones is not going to be as effective as getting soils. To further this example if you have a monster invest in killing it and the path you take is supers then pol proc if you have a several none wet world colonies say 8+ and have only proded 1 cs. If your colony count is lower supers wont benefit as much when you get them so go pol proc then build ships and cs, then put techs to tech nuet scaner and build BB's fill monster world and keep building BB set hw to op's and xports and go find someone.
well that's at least a couple options that were probably not in the formost of my mind when I picked my race. Rarely do I get tp play my plan in my mind at the time I select race.
Prewarp:
WH's out
I have had good results with SubAqua Lrg Rich these and Aqua Arti Lrg Rich +3picks optional.
This setup tends to be to slow for Tol and Creative.
Tech races like DemoLith+3 optional, SubLithLrgArti, UnLithLrgArti can race to droids safely.
When WH's are in there is always a chance of a tele blitzer or omni blitzer.
Tele does a fair job of tech stealing.
So the tech races migth not want to race to droids in such cases but race to soem battle tech 1st like C3 or Neutron scanner level fusion beams the scanner is helpful data.
Average:
wow it is wide open here on what to pick so many things can work or fail.
Lets start with wh out.
Big pop is a key compenent.
Tol's Subs' Aqua's and SubAqua's use either many colonies or larger colonies.
Blitzers look for pop races to consume,
Tech races look to scence for droids and or teraform.
So these are the 3 main Arch Types.
Tol's expand for mass colonies to hace lots of r-labs supers for tech and some UR's to crank BB or income taxes.
Aqua's also go for some fast cs producting and hope for soem wet worlds to have nice rp/prod.
SubAqua's are a bit slower but catch up fast and have great late game potentail.
Sub's build fewer cs and are slow starters after robo's the grow well but it can be to late, this pick should be practed and you might try early hydro now n then and soils are a must.
Tech races have good initial and final rp's mid game rp tends to drop when the go to expand. The plan is to have superior weapon systems on your ships when you attack.
Blitzer will go battle techs and not tech Supers, they try to come at arround turn 75-80 and will have 1-2 BB depending on race picks, (note I have seen 3 BB show up arround then byn non blitz race that had bad sector but a good sys to land orriginal cs) I have seen a fudal bltzer run a 4 way by t45 with no wh. So nowh is not a safe guard vs blitz, omni isn't either The map top top bottom is not that long two three op's tops gets you into enemy from top to bottom. Side to side is a longer path.
For this set up I think.
UniAquaLrgRich+2prod-shipDef Rep or
UniAquaLrgRichArti+1prod-shipDef Rep
are most effective to handle most situations; bad map, early blitzer contact, good map colones.
With wh in more war techs is recomended before going supers and perhaps a war race picks or two.
For this set up I think.
UniAquaLrgRich+1prod+20Off-spyRep or
UniAquaLrg+1prodWL -spyRep
are most effective to handle most situations; bad map, early blitzer contact, good map colones.
I have had good results with WL, WL+50 needs soem practice WL+TransD needs even more but both are fun.
You have to have some flexabilitity in your race depending on your map. You expansion and tech tree should change depending on the map. If you have say a auqa and dont find any wet world getting clones is not going to be as effective as getting soils. To further this example if you have a monster invest in killing it and the path you take is supers then pol proc if you have a several none wet world colonies say 8+ and have only proded 1 cs. If your colony count is lower supers wont benefit as much when you get them so go pol proc then build ships and cs, then put techs to tech nuet scaner and build BB's fill monster world and keep building BB set hw to op's and xports and go find someone.
well that's at least a couple options that were probably not in the formost of my mind when I picked my race. Rarely do I get tp play my plan in my mind at the time I select race.
Gusset
I think this could be true for your race you play all the time. When I consider the more extreme art hw race...it loses its option to settle a monster with the first cship.
I had very good results with poor hw –spy in post warp since there are autofacts to compensate.
------------------------------------
ALEX|D
-------------------------------------
Step
Yes. A nice idea this thread. But not much discussion yet......only statements.I thought it might be nice to start a thread containing people's thoughts on what race picks go good, or go poorly, with particular game settings.
This will probably result in some spirited discussion, and perhaps the newer players around will be able to wade through the discussion and pick up on one or three finer points of the game.
My personal findings: the higher the starting tech level, the greater the advantage in taking a production race.
I think this could be true for your race you play all the time. When I consider the more extreme art hw race...it loses its option to settle a monster with the first cship.
In an average tech game, where all players are given colony ship technology and one colony ship, the production race is better off than a tech race. Free tech to a production race is a bigger boost than the free colony ship to the tech race. In a post-warp game, it's even bigger, because there's free autofactory and research lab tech given to everyone.
I had very good results with poor hw –spy in post warp since there are autofacts to compensate.
Map is a huge factor. I still think that prod races have an edge but maybe we should test some maps with different races. We could compare the results in this thread?!I do not really know if a pre-warp setup actually favors a well played technology race over a production race, or if it is merely "equal". I am quite confident, however, that at the very least, production races do not have the dominance in pre-warp games that they do in average or post-warp.
I think the creative evaluation is clear. It is suicide in post or pre warp. A must have in advanced and barely playable in average.I don't know for sure how this applies to the creative race pick, however my guess is that creative has the best chance of success in an average tech setting.
------------------------------------
ALEX|D
But it is interesting that some races can live without these techs for a very long time. See the 5way yesterday.If u decide to tech to wartech u need to eat another player around t80-90, if he had decided to tech to supers, its important that u gain good techs like supers robos ... and the pop/systems u´ll conquer r needed too.
-------------------------------------
Step
I agree with creative. But Tol??? It had very good results the last year. Though I am not sure how much was caused by the minstart switch which increased the probability of a rich planet in the homesystem.Prewarp:
WH's out
I have had good results with SubAqua Lrg Rich these and Aqua Arti Lrg Rich +3picks optional.
This setup tends to be to slow for Tol and Creative.
I prefer WL 20att. I think it is a bit more flexible than the above-mentioned races. With the att bonus a md c3 blitz is a very attractive option. WL50 hurts the economy too much imo since you cant pick prod+1. Without 20att massdrivers are not that good early on. Well, I had very good results with WL20att. And each game I was teching and attacking quite differently. Makes fun!With wh in more war techs is recomended before going supers and perhaps a war race picks or two.
For this set up I think.
UniAquaLrgRich+1prod+20Off-spyRep or
UniAquaLrg+1prodWL -spyRep
are most effective to handle most situations; bad map, early blitzer contact, good map colones.
I have had good results with WL, WL+50 needs soem practice WL+TransD needs even more but both are fun.
That's interesting, everytime I play with Cabman he does a blitzI think one of the most important things is to be unpredictable... what did he took..? blitz or normal race...
.But yes, I agree. However, IMHO playing a greater variety of races skillfully takes more experience, and as a newer player I will often play the same race a couple of times in a row.
Actually, Brent, I'm pretty sure Cab was aiming his comment at me.That's interesting, everytime I play with Cabman he does a blitzI think one of the most important things is to be unpredictable... what did he took..? blitz or normal race...
Siron also likes to rib me about it. I think they don't think I'm aware of the benefits of mixing things up... 
I tend to play the same race most of the time (demo/lith/LRHW), and while I have used different strategies with that race to shake things up, lately I've been blitzing with it almost 100% (for about the past year or so). Before that I spent the previous year or two figuring out how best to use it in a longer game situation, and prior to that most old-timers could verify that I played nothing but +50 beam attack races (developing ways to make it into the mid-game instead of just attacking right away for a shorter game) for about 3 years.
Generally throughout my MOO2 "career" I've stuck with a strategy for a long time not out of reluctance to do anything else, but in order to improve it through practice combined with a dogged determination to flat out stay away from the generally acknowledged "power races". You can use single player to practice just about any development strategy or timeline. However perfecting what to do with any strategy once you have contact with a competent human opponent can only be practiced against a human player (funny thing, that...)
-Gusset
I didn't think about anyone writing this, really Guss . Btw I like games with our demo master which help me improving my demo skills (waiting for rematch ).And i considered especially xway setups which i play recently, where players meet earlier than in 1 vs 1. (we played only 1or 2 xway together Guss).
About Brent note: yes i blitzed you twice but i also play different way, and hope you'll find it out soon
. Btw I like games with our demo master which help me improving my demo skills (waiting for rematch ).And i considered especially xway setups which i play recently, where players meet earlier than in 1 vs 1. (we played only 1or 2 xway together Guss).About Brent note: yes i blitzed you twice but i also play different way, and hope you'll find it out soon
yea ... sometimes it is different but usually it works like this. Depends on how well the blitz is and how well the others do ... !"If u decide to tech to wartech u need to eat another player around t80-90, if he had decided to tech to supers, its important that u gain good techs like supers robos ... and the pop/systems u´ll conquer r needed too."
But it is interesting that some races can live without these techs for a very long time. See the 5way yesterday.
Here is a race pick strategy that I've been experimenting with as a Balanced Race, Tell me what you all think of it --
THe picks are:
Taxes +1BC (8)
Democracy (7)
Aquatic (5)
with the Standard (-10) picks...
Huge Galaxy
What I do is I put all my free guys, that are not on farming to Research and when I get Research Labs, I buy them straight out, same with Autofactories. Then I save money and shift, move them all back to production and buy the Colony Base when it is Economical (2BCs/prod). Next, on the Colony Base I straight out buy the Autofactory and do 1 pop housing immediately. Then, I get a freighter immediately and then shift back to science when I have all my Colony Bases... (if there is a good leader, I may delay this a little bit to buy him) Later Spaceport is cruical.
My thought Process is: Primarily Reseach and then buy key buildings Rushed (up to 4BC/prod) and the rest like ships and stuff, do a slight rush with (2BC/prod). The Extra Tax Money picks is like free stored up production while you are researching. The +1BC/pop and Democracy gives you a total of +2BC/pop which equates to about +1 production/pop (given a conversion rate of 2BCs/prod), except for the fact that you also generate revenue from Farmers and Farmers dont produce production, this is free BCs, so it is really like having a +2 Production/pop because half of the workers are farmers. This is if you have all your availiable people as workers. Also, Money doesnt generate pollution, so the exchange is acutually a little bit better. And you recieve the BCs no matter what just because of your population whether they are farmers, workers, or scientists. The advanctage comes into play when you consider the fact that scientists and farmers do not produce Production, so, I am thinking if you have at least the same number, preferably more of farmers + scientists compared to workers then it is worthwhile to do this because you can buy production while you research like normal, actually +50% better because you're a Democracy. Science and Tax Revenue are pollution free. The only downfall I can see is Democracy has a (-) to spying.
THe picks are:
Taxes +1BC (8)
Democracy (7)
Aquatic (5)
with the Standard (-10) picks...
Huge Galaxy
What I do is I put all my free guys, that are not on farming to Research and when I get Research Labs, I buy them straight out, same with Autofactories. Then I save money and shift, move them all back to production and buy the Colony Base when it is Economical (2BCs/prod). Next, on the Colony Base I straight out buy the Autofactory and do 1 pop housing immediately. Then, I get a freighter immediately and then shift back to science when I have all my Colony Bases... (if there is a good leader, I may delay this a little bit to buy him) Later Spaceport is cruical.
My thought Process is: Primarily Reseach and then buy key buildings Rushed (up to 4BC/prod) and the rest like ships and stuff, do a slight rush with (2BC/prod). The Extra Tax Money picks is like free stored up production while you are researching. The +1BC/pop and Democracy gives you a total of +2BC/pop which equates to about +1 production/pop (given a conversion rate of 2BCs/prod), except for the fact that you also generate revenue from Farmers and Farmers dont produce production, this is free BCs, so it is really like having a +2 Production/pop because half of the workers are farmers. This is if you have all your availiable people as workers. Also, Money doesnt generate pollution, so the exchange is acutually a little bit better. And you recieve the BCs no matter what just because of your population whether they are farmers, workers, or scientists. The advanctage comes into play when you consider the fact that scientists and farmers do not produce Production, so, I am thinking if you have at least the same number, preferably more of farmers + scientists compared to workers then it is worthwhile to do this because you can buy production while you research like normal, actually +50% better because you're a Democracy. Science and Tax Revenue are pollution free. The only downfall I can see is Democracy has a (-) to spying.
lotsa people play this race.
its the cash race.
its prolly the next best demo race after demolith. theres also gusset's demo aqua +1food arti/+1res large, but i like democash more.
with this race, so far, ive gotten 285bc per turn by turn 100 so far.
you can build cbases with or without autos. after rlabs/autos/bios, normally i race for either robos or supers. one key tech to get with this race, is stock exchange, which will boost your income by almost a good 100bc per turn.
eventually, you can buy all your battleships within 8-10 turns with the income you make with this race. buy a bb at half built with 2000bc. it works, its a great race, i love it.
its one of those clean production races. the only thing i dont like about it, is that it doesnt tech fast like demolith, or demo arti, +1res/+2res etc. but, the good thing about this race, is that it can build unlike all other demo races. and it can build fast. which is the best part about this race.
its the cash race.
its prolly the next best demo race after demolith. theres also gusset's demo aqua +1food arti/+1res large, but i like democash more.
with this race, so far, ive gotten 285bc per turn by turn 100 so far.
you can build cbases with or without autos. after rlabs/autos/bios, normally i race for either robos or supers. one key tech to get with this race, is stock exchange, which will boost your income by almost a good 100bc per turn.
eventually, you can buy all your battleships within 8-10 turns with the income you make with this race. buy a bb at half built with 2000bc. it works, its a great race, i love it.
its one of those clean production races. the only thing i dont like about it, is that it doesnt tech fast like demolith, or demo arti, +1res/+2res etc. but, the good thing about this race, is that it can build unlike all other demo races. and it can build fast. which is the best part about this race.
Demolith probably works better than any Demo+Aqua combination.
I tried demoAqua tech and it didn't work for me all at. My plan was to tech straight to robos, expand and get way ahead on techs and launch an offensive just as most production races were building supers but the plan fell apart quickly after a wormhole linked my empire to a blitz race empire. I then started to go for war-techs but the -spy defense left me more vulnerable on that front and the other race was able to steal several techs before I could put up any kind of spy defense. Having to defend against spying further set me back and I was unable to expand quickly enough to keep up with the typical production races.
If there any mod to balance Democracy against Unification it should reduce the pick cost to 6 and eliminate the -10 spy defense.
I tried demoAqua tech and it didn't work for me all at. My plan was to tech straight to robos, expand and get way ahead on techs and launch an offensive just as most production races were building supers but the plan fell apart quickly after a wormhole linked my empire to a blitz race empire. I then started to go for war-techs but the -spy defense left me more vulnerable on that front and the other race was able to steal several techs before I could put up any kind of spy defense. Having to defend against spying further set me back and I was unable to expand quickly enough to keep up with the typical production races.
If there any mod to balance Democracy against Unification it should reduce the pick cost to 6 and eliminate the -10 spy defense.
There´s already a modIf there any mod to balance Democracy against Unification it should reduce the pick cost to 6 and eliminate the -10 spy defense.
http://masteroforion2.blogspot.com/2005 ... od-b4.html
This race isn´t compareable with the usual uni prodraces. Only race which can is demolith.The only downfall I can see is Democracy has a (-) to spying.
Demoaqua isn´t a good choice imho. I would say if demo then demolith or it will suck on food problems.
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