Turn 100

Discussion on how to play against other humans.
User avatar
norcen
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:10 pm

Turn 100

Postby norcen » Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:52 pm

Hi.

I just started playing Moo2 again - yet to do MP, but have been reading this forum assiduously.

I want to benchmark my progress as I get familiar with the game again, specifically the infamous turn 100 progress check.

I've read a lot about specific strategies, but none really flesh out exactly when certain things occur at this stage of the game. I'd like to figure out, say, what tech a unitol should have while achieving 100 pop, or what kind of fleet a demolith would be fielding.

Here's the laundry list:

TURN 100:
describe your race?
pop?
tech? preferably which field currently researching, how far beyond supercomputers in the following research order:
http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Master_of_ ... arch_paths
RP?
Income?
systems?
fleet size?
CP?
How many players conquered?

I'm experimenting with democreative races right now on huge impossible. I find the computer to be easy to win regardless of situation, but I know MP is an entirely different ballpark.

My numbers right now are modest at best:

TURN 100:
describe your race? - some sort of democreative
pop? - very low, usually around 25-50
tech? after supercomps, robo miners and merc missiles, usually have finished all sub-250 techs, going onto cybertronic->autolabs
RP? ~300
Income? depends if I'm charismatic, if so, usually ~40-50. If not, ~20-30.
systems? 2-4
fleet size? *might* have a BB or some cruisers, but usually just spacemonster frigates, which can also kill cardboard AIs once I have mirv nukes
CP? 7-10
How many players conquered? none - this is probably one area I can work on, if my frigate fleet is effective. Powered armor makes ground combat relatively easy

There's a lot of talk about unitols hitting 100 pop, but at what cost to research? What kind of fleet size would such a race be fielding? The questions could go on, but I figure starting a discussion would be the best place to start. I've tried unitol myself (unitolcharisma, -shp atk/def, -GC, -spy) - at turn 250 I have 500 pop, Orion and have eliminated 3 races, which is about what kind of progress I make with democreative - maybe less pop and better tech. I have a feeling this is far from competitive - I hit 100 pop ~ turn 150. Mind you I've tried unitol only once. I know charisma is a very unpopular pick, but I've set myself to testing it for the time being.

Final question: what starting conditions are the most popular? It seems most of the caution regarding anti-blitz strategies would suggest that a med-large map or smaller is most popular, and I would guess that's due to time constraints. Oh, and that silly things like random events and antarans are turned off.

Thanks :D

Gorean
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2009 2:49 pm
Contact:

Postby Gorean » Fri Dec 17, 2010 5:07 pm

I hope that I can be of help. I tend to play very meticulously, so I have a pretty accurate idea of my benchmarks, though I admit that I stopped using benchmarks some time ago when I got so comfortable with my game play that the timing no longer mattered as much as the "feel" of my development, if that makes sense to you.

I know that some players like to keep their strategies under wraps, but I believe in open sharing of strategy and sharing of information, because I believe in making things easier on new incoming players. I have recordings of my gameplay on Ustream and I stream games from time to time live. The player and the links can be found on the front of http://masteroforion2.blogspot.com/

Anyway, I'd estimate that an average to above average game for me using Sub, Lith, 50 pop, RH, LH, ends up like this:

TURN 100:

Race: Sub, Lith, 50 pop, RH, LH

Pop: 175 to 185

Let me explain my tech like this:
Construction: Up to Astro Enginearing
Power: Possibly up to Matter Energy Conversion
Chemistry: Probably up to Molecular Manipulation
Sociology: Up to Macro Economics
Computers: Up to Artificial Consciousness
Biology: Up to Trans Genetics
Physics: Probably up to Artificial Gravity
Force Fields: Possibly up to Gravitic fields or higher depending on strategy.

RP: Likely above 1000. Not likely higher than 1500 yet.

Income: Likely around 100 to 200 BC per turn.

Systems: I am not sure what you mean by this. Ships systems will often very depending on strategy, but I suppose it is fair to say that in most of my games I will have Heavy Armor in addition to the starting ones. I wouldn't say that there is any other system that I am as likely to take. That is partially due to my race and play style, though.

fleet size: I have about 3 to 7 ships completed and stored ready to be built by this time. Rarely do I have them already made in advance.
CP: I haven't got a clue, lol. I don't look at this as much until I already have it below 0 and have to worry about it. I'd say that I am close to finishing a number of star bases on a number of worlds by 100, though, so I am always ready to CP quickly if the need arises. My worlds slowly build star bases so that the CP naturally rises over time as better worlds finish their bases. I know that other players like to do this too.

How many players conquered: Unless you feel like playing for more than six hours you are going to be playing a 1 on 1 game. Games with more than two hours are not likely to ends before six hours, so they are a serious time investment. At any rate, you will almost never kill someone by 100 unless you are blitzing them or rushing them. Even with a blitz you probably won't. With a rush you usually will, or you will die before it. No one usually rushes, though, unless they need to be gone quickly.


I'll try to check in and add any information that might be helpful, if you have questions! In regards to your last question, we play Large maps unless the game is above four players. Very rare.

I'd also like to add that almost every race must make over 100 pop by 100 to compete, and most races need 150 or more to compete. Uni is probably best to have 200 or more to compete with demo races, and what not.
Vita multis dat nimis, satis nulli.

User avatar
norcen
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:10 pm

Postby norcen » Fri Dec 17, 2010 7:15 pm

Gorean wrote:I hope that I can be of help.


Wow, thanks, great reply - this was exactly what I was looking for. I totally get your deal about 'game-feel' - it seems like most of the veteran posters here work that way too.

It looks like you're using a mod of some sort - sub lith 50pop R/LH works to 12 picks...? I'm using 1.31 right now.

That's crazy that you've maxed out bio tech, and are close with chemistry. Wow. But, wouldn't computers be a better deal than trans genetics to at least get the galactic networking for less RP, which you could use to get the other techs even faster? Or is that under a different mod?

By 'systems' I meant star systems - shoulda been more clear on that. But, with 150-200 pop...hm. I guess a sub race could knock that out in just 4-6 systems.

I also forgot to specify the starting period, I suppose average is a good place to start. Some of my saves were pre-warp, so that may account for some bad numbers.

Anyway, thanks for sharing :D

PS - if anyone else would like to volunteer some info... :roll: :wink:

Gorean
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2009 2:49 pm
Contact:

Postby Gorean » Sat Dec 18, 2010 3:02 am

I do use a mod. VDC (Very Difficult Choices) mod, to be exact. It is played by 90% of players online in multiplayer. It is so commonly referred to that it didn't even occur to me that you were not using it. I actually haven't played the regular version of MoO in maybe a year and a half or more, so I can't even begin to discuss game play in it. They used to have that pretty much boiled down, though, so doubtless some players with more years experience than me should be able to explain the benchmarks for that with ease.

I should have realized that you meant star systems. I almost always have five systems by 100, and the fifth is colonized somewhere around 70-80 in many games. That part I've played around enough with that I can't be exact on the timing, and it could be up or down five or ten turns depending on what I manage to get and how I want to play it.

It does seem to me that most players are likely to go with five systems unless they have an expansion heavy race that has good production potential, or they have a research, or creative, or blitz race that will be relying less on numbers and more on race picks to carry it through. My race is somewhere in the middle.

We tend to start in the Average tech age, and I probably only ever played pre warp once or twice.
Vita multis dat nimis, satis nulli.

User avatar
Overlord2
Posts: 654
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:25 pm

Postby Overlord2 » Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:54 am

PS - if anyone else would like to volunteer some info...

Let me try to answer you.

TURN 100:
describe your race?
pop?
tech? preferably which field currently researching, how far beyond supercomputers in the following research order:
http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Master_of_ ... arch_paths
RP?
Income?
systems?
fleet size?
CP?

OK, so v. Orion2v1.40.exe
1) Race:
Race #1 Uni Tol +1 prod Large hw;
Race #2 Uni Aqua +2 prod large rich hw;
Race #2 Uni Sub +2 prod rich hw; etc. i.e. races based on unification.
2) Pop benchmarks:
turn 50: 35-50 pop; less than 35 you're doing bad, above 50 you are doing very good;
turn 80: less than 80 pop, you are doing bad, 80-100 you're doing ok, more than 100 you're doing good;
turn 100: less than 120 - you are doing bad; 120-150 - you're doing OK, more than 150 - you're doing good.
3) Tech: the key in your performance is when you research supercomputers, which is teched after clones/soils generally. t75 is the target benchmark;
t76-80 - you are doing bad;
t70-75 - average;
t65-70 - you're doing very good. Note that if you have researched it early, but your pop lacks this is worse than having more pop, but researching it later. But in any case researching it later than t76-80 will put you far behind.
4) RP benchmark:
t80 - 450-600 RPs per turn; t100 - 600-900 RPs per turn;
5) Income - the exact number doesn't matter, you can always raise taxes when needed; Generally keeping taxes on 10% after building robominers is a good idea. That's about 6-7 turns later after building supercomputers.
6) Number of systems:
general benchmark: you need to build 2 colony ships before turn 50 and 2 more after t 50, and 2-3 after getting robominers; so, by t 100 you have 8-10 systems.
7) Fleet size - depends on your strategy and oponenet's action. The only benchmark here is you need to be prepared to start building your fleet massively after t 100. Build on riches/uriches and never on poors, or your pop is inefficient.

PS: check out the cybersaber's strategy guide, it helps to understand how to achieve this goal: http://masteroforion2.blogspot.com/2005 ... guide.html

Alexfrog
Posts: 23
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:05 pm

Re: Turn 100

Postby Alexfrog » Tue Dec 21, 2010 3:46 pm

norcen wrote:Hi.

I just started playing Moo2 again - yet to do MP, but have been reading this forum assiduously.

I want to benchmark my progress as I get familiar with the game again, specifically the infamous turn 100 progress check.

I've read a lot about specific strategies, but none really flesh out exactly when certain things occur at this stage of the game. I'd like to figure out, say, what tech a unitol should have while achieving 100 pop, or what kind of fleet a demolith would be fielding.

Here's the laundry list:

TURN 100:
describe your race?
pop?
tech? preferably which field currently researching, how far beyond supercomputers in the following research order:
http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Master_of_ ... arch_paths
RP?
Income?
systems?
fleet size?
CP?
How many players conquered?

I'm experimenting with democreative races right now on huge impossible. I find the computer to be easy to win regardless of situation, but I know MP is an entirely different ballpark.

My numbers right now are modest at best:

TURN 100:
describe your race? - some sort of democreative
pop? - very low, usually around 25-50
tech? after supercomps, robo miners and merc missiles, usually have finished all sub-250 techs, going onto cybertronic->autolabs
RP? ~300
Income? depends if I'm charismatic, if so, usually ~40-50. If not, ~20-30.
systems? 2-4
fleet size? *might* have a BB or some cruisers, but usually just spacemonster frigates, which can also kill cardboard AIs once I have mirv nukes
CP? 7-10
How many players conquered? none - this is probably one area I can work on, if my frigate fleet is effective. Powered armor makes ground combat relatively easy

There's a lot of talk about unitols hitting 100 pop, but at what cost to research? What kind of fleet size would such a race be fielding? The questions could go on, but I figure starting a discussion would be the best place to start. I've tried unitol myself (unitolcharisma, -shp atk/def, -GC, -spy) - at turn 250 I have 500 pop, Orion and have eliminated 3 races, which is about what kind of progress I make with democreative - maybe less pop and better tech. I have a feeling this is far from competitive - I hit 100 pop ~ turn 150. Mind you I've tried unitol only once. I know charisma is a very unpopular pick, but I've set myself to testing it for the time being.

Final question: what starting conditions are the most popular? It seems most of the caution regarding anti-blitz strategies would suggest that a med-large map or smaller is most popular, and I would guess that's due to time constraints. Oh, and that silly things like random events and antarans are turned off.

Thanks :D


Hi Norcen,

Most people play with the following settings:

* Most recent VDC patch (IMPORTANT!!)
* NORMAL tech level (not prewarp). (I find Prewarp slows the game down by around 15-20 turns).
* LARGE Galaxy, Organic Rich, 2 player (multiplayer is played without AIs).
* FixedHW map edit with planets=5. This changes your start system to:
Homeworld, Small Poor Gaia, Large Abundant Arid, Large Abundant Swamp, Large Poor Tundra. Note that this is important, and you should practice with this. This is actually a better start than you are probably used to getting and will help you hit population benchmarks.
* Some map editor, such as Goodmap2, with settings that terraform toxic/radiateds to barren, ultrapoors to poor, lowGs to normal G, etc. (Note: This will help a bit as well).
* Many people play with monsters off. Most play no nebulas, wormholes, etc because these can be imbalancing.

Large map is used to allow attacks but slow them a bit. Smaller galaxies favor rush races with telepathic that dont make for very interesting games. However, on a large map you can still rush fairly well, using outposts. Outpost wars are an important part of the game. Each player will generally only colonize a few systems (5-6 or so), and then meet in the middle and try to reach the opponent via outposts.



As to population:
Uni should have the most t100 pop as it is the fastest, however each pop unit for uni is weaker at that point than those of other races so its pretty balanced. I tend to have 200+ pop with Uni on turn 100 (many of them are probably androids with the Uni strategy). Demo or Dict races have less pop but each pop is providing more research. You want to be over 1000 RP at turn 100 or soon after.

I am best with Uni races personally (Uni Subterranean Pop+50 Industry+2), and around turn 100 I will tend to have the following tech:
Robo Miners (and stuff before)
A couple chemistry levels
Supercomputers (I usually hit supercomputers turn 50-55 with this Uni race. Others are different).
A couple physics
A couple energy
Spaceports
Android Scientists level Biology (other non-uni races do different things here).
A couple force fields.

At the time I will be researching towards some military techs like Zortrium Armor, Antimatter Drives, etc which i will tend to hit by t110. I will generally be launching a fleet of a couple Battleships and several smaller ships at my opponent around t100, with several outpost ships clearing a path. (However, I havent played as much recently, and I think they increased the cost of Androids which hurts my strategy some).


Different races are at different levels at this time. A creative race probably doesnt have military yet, it is going down the social tree for more bonuses. The creative (dictatorship subterranean) race will explode to thousands of RP a turn by turn 120, and then rapidly catch up on tech, so basically the uni race needs to hammer it right away after t100. The democracy race will similarly explode in RP once it hits high morale boost techs and high biology techs for stuff like terraforming. These are longer game races, Uni is the rush race. ("Rush" means an attack around t100-120 or so probably, with a strong economy. "Blitz" means sacrificing everything for an early attack, probably with a telepathic race, hoping to catch the opponent completely defenseless)



TURN 100:
describe your race?
pop?
tech? preferably which field currently researching, how far beyond supercomputers in the following research order:
http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Master_of_ ... arch_paths
RP?
Income?
systems?
fleet size?
CP?
How many players conquered?


Some good races:
Dictatorship Creative Subterranean +money +pop growth Rich Home (or something like that)
Dictatorship Lithovore Subterranean Pop Growth (maybe Rich Home).
Democracy (Subterranean or Aquatic) Pop Growth +Money Rich Home Large Home.
Unification (Subterranean or Aquatic) +Industry +Pop Growth

There are various combinations of those things that work very well and are pretty balanced.

Pop:
Uni: 180+
Non Uni: 150+

RP: Close to 1k.

Income: Several Hundred a turn as Demo or Dict, About 0 as Uni.

Systems: About 5-6 but it depends on strategy and how long of a game youre playing for. I've had 12 systems and 250 pop on t100 as Uni, but at the cost of not having an attack ready, which is probably a losing strategy. I think its probably best to go with about 5-6 systems, build them up and then focus on teching and a fleet at that point. 5-6 systems with subterranean and terraforming can fit a crazy number of people.

Fleet Size: T100 I want a couple battleships as Uni and several smaller ones to accompany. As other races you need to be ready for such a fleet to hit you around t110 or so. If both players are playing teching races like creative, maybe you dont build much military until t120 instead.


CP: With a +CP tech from the lower left tech tree and starbases in all your developed colonies you should have good CP by now, enough for your fleet.

How Many players conquered: For MP games, 0. I dont really care about games against AIs, since they arent hard enough.

Alexfrog
Posts: 23
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:05 pm

Postby Alexfrog » Tue Dec 21, 2010 4:04 pm

A note on the strategy wiki's recommended research paths:

These are all for Prewarp, which changes things a lot from normal. Also, I think that guide makes a big mistake by going for colony ships too early before some key research items like Research Labs. It says a production race should go for colony ship and build 2-4 of them before it even gets autofactories. Thats incredibly horrible.

With Uni my tech order is (for normal start tech):

Nothing at first, while I build several Colony Bases. (Bases not ships).
Research Labs (switch to many scientists after building several colony bases).
Automated Factories.
Supercomputer! (Dont build colony ships until after this is done, use many scientists)
Lots of Bio Techs, and Robo Miners.


Other races need different orders though. Many science races need auto factory before research lab for example. Also, non Uni, non Lithovore races get more benefit of early Bio techs, as they have more food issues early on.

Also, whether or not youre doing an Android strategy or not matters a lot. An android strategy doesnt need early cloning centers, instead they want to get RP up faster and then head for androids. You can quickly max your planets' pop with androids. A non android strategy likes earlier cloning to boost pop levels.

Gorean
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2009 2:49 pm
Contact:

Postby Gorean » Sat Dec 25, 2010 5:40 am

Just wanted to tip my hat to Alex for covering some good info there, and being so clear. I personally admire precision.

I think it is really interesting that you get Supercomputers before you get your colony ships. I'd have never expected that from a uni race. I never played Uni seriously, though, even before I fell in love with the Lithovore race, so I only have an understanding of it through my friends who do play it, and through some testing of its abilities. I always imagined the way to go with Uni would be to power colony ships as fast as humanly possible. Then again, I think I based that assumption on the fact that I understood Uni races to be notorious as population farmers who basically house their population up to unreachable levels. Since you are so fond of Androids, as I have seen personally, it does make sense to me that maybe a different strategy might be needed, and so I am going to guess that what you do is essentially get yourself on track to grab the Android tech, then make colonies as fast as possible, and then fill up some essentially empty worlds at a very fast rate right after colonizing them.

Anyway, just thought it might be fun to throw my thoughts out there. Merry Christmas. :)
Vita multis dat nimis, satis nulli.

User avatar
Overlord2
Posts: 654
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:25 pm

Postby Overlord2 » Sat Dec 25, 2010 7:04 am

Continuing theme of androids I'd like to point out that if uni lacks its own pop, but mostly is popped with androids, it will hurt uni badly: androids cannot be transformed into workers, but very often it happens you need to shift to massive production on the worlds, and if production capacity is very low , it fails. As an example - you need to build interdictors everywhere...Or you need to build huge number of destroyers & etc...

Alexfrog
Posts: 23
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:05 pm

Postby Alexfrog » Sun Dec 26, 2010 5:10 am

Gorean wrote:Just wanted to tip my hat to Alex for covering some good info there, and being so clear. I personally admire precision.

I think it is really interesting that you get Supercomputers before you get your colony ships. I'd have never expected that from a uni race. I never played Uni seriously, though, even before I fell in love with the Lithovore race, so I only have an understanding of it through my friends who do play it, and through some testing of its abilities. I always imagined the way to go with Uni would be to power colony ships as fast as humanly possible. Then again, I think I based that assumption on the fact that I understood Uni races to be notorious as population farmers who basically house their population up to unreachable levels. Since you are so fond of Androids, as I have seen personally, it does make sense to me that maybe a different strategy might be needed, and so I am going to guess that what you do is essentially get yourself on track to grab the Android tech, then make colonies as fast as possible, and then fill up some essentially empty worlds at a very fast rate right after colonizing them.

Anyway, just thought it might be fun to throw my thoughts out there. Merry Christmas. :)


A non android uni strategy gets cloning labs before supercomps and probably builds colony ships a bit earlier.

My non androids Uni games might have 100 pop on turn 70 and then 200 on turn 100. With androids its like 70 pop on turn 70 and then 250 on turn 100.


There is plenty of normal population left to produce stuff while the androids farm and research. Compared to a non uni race at that point you're outproducing them but they start outteching you to catch up. Production isnt the problem, its killing them before they catch up and pass you.

User avatar
Overlord2
Posts: 654
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:25 pm

Postby Overlord2 » Sun Dec 26, 2010 6:40 am

Alexfrog wrote:A non android uni strategy gets cloning labs before supercomps and probably builds colony ships a bit earlier.

My non androids Uni games might have 100 pop on turn 70 and then 200 on turn 100. With androids its like 70 pop on turn 70 and then 250 on turn 100.

There is plenty of normal population left to produce stuff while the androids farm and research. Compared to a non uni race at that point you're outproducing them but they start outteching you to catch up. Production isnt the problem, its killing them before they catch up and pass you.

Perhaps android strategy combined with early teching is vialble, but I don't think going for supers before clones is justified. Have to see it in action :)
Btw, you're welcome to demonstrate it. Got any saves?

Alexfrog
Posts: 23
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:05 pm

Postby Alexfrog » Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:55 pm

Overlord2 wrote:Perhaps android strategy combined with early teching is vialble, but I don't think going for supers before clones is justified. Have to see it in action :)
Btw, you're welcome to demonstrate it. Got any saves?


I posted a big thread on it in this forum:
http://www.spheriumnorth.com/orion-foru ... php?t=1500

It has saved games from various positions, including turn 100 with over 300 pop including the ones in freighters. This is from back in VDC 27 though.

In this strategy, cloning labs first just slows you down, I actually only build a few of them usually. There just isnt any need once you get androids. It doesnt make sense to get androids later and with more people on each planet when you get them. As soon as you get androids population explodes to max every planet you can get them to almost immediately. Androids lets you have all your developed planets essentially grow at a rate of 1000 plus their normal growth, pumping an android a turn. Cloning labs are 100 + normal. Thats a lot less. :p


Obviously in most strategies early cloning labs are great and you need them. Uni android strategy is just different. For most races androids arent very good because they get no morale bonuses and pay no income, which hurts them for Dictatorship and Democracy where youre getting big morale bonuses by that point and generating a lot of money per population.

I dont think Uni Androids is the strongest strategy overall. It looks like the top Democracy races are better like Demo Sub Pop100 Money+0.5 Rich Home. But its a good strategy and generates a strong attack in the turn 100-110 range that can generally crush all but the very top players.

User avatar
norcen
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:10 pm

Postby norcen » Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:26 pm

Hello again, hope everyone had a great break!

Thanks all for all the great info. The point about the 5 planet system is indeed very important, as it gives everyone a fair and very well-endowed start, it seems.

I see that just opening and playing the game is completely different than what you guys are doing, so it would follow that your benchmarks are markedly different from what I've been able to get so far by playing vanilla Moo2.

After a lot of reading, I tried a 'one-system challenge' much like what Civ4 has with its 'one-city-challenge' and was surprised that I led in the galactic council all the way until I invaded the Antarans and beat the game...all with one system...!?!

Anyway, maybe one day I'll give MP a shot. It looks like you guys have made it quite a challenge :twisted:

Alexfrog
Posts: 23
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:05 pm

Postby Alexfrog » Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:23 pm

norcen wrote:I see that just opening and playing the game is completely different than what you guys are doing, so it would follow that your benchmarks are markedly different from what I've been able to get so far by playing vanilla Moo2.


Yes! Practice with the 5 planet home system. The strong home system balances out the difference between planet quality significantly, making MP games more about skill than lucking into good planets.

After a lot of reading, I tried a 'one-system challenge' much like what Civ4 has with its 'one-city-challenge' and was surprised that I led in the galactic council all the way until I invaded the Antarans and beat the game...all with one system...!?!


This is fun, probably the best challenge you can havein vanilla moo.
You Led the galactic council because the AIs suck at pop growth. In fact, they dont build colony bases. They colonize many systems, but only one planet in each (lol!).

For a challenge, now do one PLANET challenge, on normal start tech in vanilla moo.

After beating that, do it on PREWARP! (This is very hard!).


But for real challenges, come play MP. :)


Return to “Strategy & Tactics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest