(VDC): Unification Android Strategy in VDC

Discussion on how to play against other humans.
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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:57 am

Your analysis is correct. The prod words are essential in moo strategy. The sooner you start saving prod for your ships, the better odds you have to win the game - either by performing early attack or defending from such attack with your ships built in time. Experienced players always carry this timing in their mind.
Generally the earlier you develop infrastructure on planets - the better.

ts unclear from these later saves what his early tech order is. Based on the similarity of our positions on t70, I have to think that Cloning first or Supercomps first are very close to each other in value

Of course clones go the first, this goes without question. The aim is to maximize pop. If you swap supers and clones in tech path in the end you get about the same timing for getting both of these techs, but your pop will be much less.
When you go for clones first then your pop is increasing faster and you research super computers faster too, due to higher pop.
Finally, he fills his Rich worlds with non-androids to have production centers (which i didnt do in the save I posted, but I did do in my MP games), in order to build his BBs. This is definitely better than having no strong production worlds.

Right. Riches are important for production strategy. For best efficiency each of the rich world should be used solely for production. Researching or farming on such worlds is ruled out.

Comment on android farmers. Android farmers could be chosen in several cases:
1) for a map, in which you have greate reserve of population capacity;
2) Your race is -food and efficiency of population is suffering;
3) You are rushing and you need an edge for speeding things up: pop growth->research-> production. It's more like win or die strategy, since in longer run you will be missing pop capacity and will be outperformed by a player who won't be missing it.

Alexfrog
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Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:05 pm

Postby Alexfrog » Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:07 pm

Working on a new tech order, for a Uni Ind+2 Sub race. (With either Pop+50, Rich Home, or +1 Food). This is what I have come up with:

Research Labs (dont research this until you have made 3 or 4 cbases in home system). When researching it, little colonies are saving production up for one instead of housing, since an RLab is worth significantly more than 1 pop which much be fed)

Hydroponic Farms
Automated Factory (build everywhere, then build a hydro farm everywhere with the increased production, not the other way around)

Cloning Center (+Biospheres and +Spy). Build everywhere right away.
Supercomputers (+spy bonus). While most of your people are researching this, hopefully a rich planet is pumping out cships. Alternately an abundant planet is pumping cships. That planet keeps pumping out the cships pretty much all game.

Soil Enrichment?
Universal Antidote?

- Do I put these two here or after production bonuses like Robo Miners and Pollution Processor? They are much cheaper to research, and result in higher pop. I think they are probably best first. With +50 pop race and +60 from antidote, and cloning, my plaents all grow rapidly, especially if I keep them near half pop and send off the extra to new colonies to get thsoe going faster.

Deuterium Fuel Cells
Pollution Processor
Robotic Factory OR Heavy Armor (leaning toward heavy armor since we are Uni and dont need more production that badly).
Bomber Bays (or something else)
Robo Miners
Fusion Drive (can be earlier).

We need to get production up so that we can terraform and build androids later, so get these first. By this point I actually have like 6 systems or so already that are getting up and running. Pollution Proc is a lot cheaper than Robo Miners, so I get it first.

Terraforming
Android Scientists (now every developed colony pumps these out and uses them to fill non production worlds, population explodes, but this occurs later and with a higher native population base. However, there are more developed worlds at this point so it does catch up some by pumping out more per turn, than a strategy that gets them earlier.

Cheap techs and Atmospheric Renewer (build on production worlds only)
And then more military stuff, Galactic Unification, whatever.


I'm playing this in a game with DaBrick currently that we suspended due to running out of time yesterday, and on turn 77 I have:
123 pop + a few on freighters.
5 systems and a colony ship going out.
14 planets.
385 RP researching Bomber Bays on the way to Robo Miners, with Pollution Procs, Supercomps, Universal Antidote researched.

Compared to the tf8 save, played out 5 more turns, I'm ahead 20 pop and a couple planets, with slightly more developed 3rd-5th systems due to sending them more population (due to Universal Antidote faster).
Techwise I am down 650+900+250 and up 400+650, so overall about 3 turns behind (probably due to sending out more pop from my developed worlds into the new systems, thus that pop isnt researching).

Alexfrog
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Postby Alexfrog » Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:15 pm

Did a solo test game with the tech order above:

Turn 110 I had 415 pop and more on freighters, 10 systems 28 planets, over 250 of that pop was native, Galactic Unification, 2200RP, and a decent number of strong production planets full of native population. (They can crank BBs in like 4-5 turns). In a real game I would probably go with more like 8 systems instead and a fleet of some sort instead of the last couple cships, and instead of reseraching to Galactic Uni after Androids, I'd grab all the cheap military techs first in order to research them when I didnt have many androids yet.

I like the tech order I posted. Universal Antidote first after supercomps gave me over 200 native pop on t100. Pollution Procs first help get new colonies off the ground (better than expensive Robo miners first I think), and they help you build the Robo Miners. You need the Robo Miners to be able to terraform quickly. And when you do hit Android scientists in the t95 area, you can make 15 andoirds and grow 5 pop a turn. I went from 200 to 300 in the 5 turns after getting androids.

Alexfrog
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Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:05 pm

Postby Alexfrog » Thu Jan 13, 2011 9:07 pm

Ok Irakly, how is this? Enough production?

(Turn 120):
http://www.mediafire.com/?r4828botn8895ux

Its an MP game.

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:49 am

Certainly, more than enough.
Btw, I do think androids are currently overpowered due to their low cost of production. I was trying to solve this matter, however it turned out not so easy to do. The cost of androids is bounded with the cost of freighters. If you increase one, you incarease the other. Increasing cost of freighters may effect the balance of the races, where unification will be hurt the least, since it gets its bonuses from the outset.

Logrus
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Postby Logrus » Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:13 am

Previouis save7 with 284 pop at 100 turn is great. Generally, if i play uni +2 prod subterranen (my favorite) race, i considered that 180 population with researched and builded up robo miners and atmospheric renewers , by turn 100, on most colonies is very good result. That game started on pre-warp tech ? I lresearch tech in such order : research lab, automated factory, pollution processor, robo miners, atmospheric renewer, cloning center, supercomputer . In Moo2 v 1.31 i researched cloning center after automated factory, but in vdc (at least vdc 27) robo miners and cloning center is deeper in tech tree. Therefore, in vdc it is much harder to build strong economy and population by turn 100, maybe it is better to research supercomputer after pollution processor?

Logrus
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Postby Logrus » Sat Mar 26, 2011 5:43 am

Today tested research-oriented race,(Demo/+1research/sub/cre), and cannot imagine how do they can compete with uni+2 prod at productivity and population.Even with +40 morale (holo nad cyber-network) it have 20 - 30 % less productivity. In populatio9n quantity, all ever worse. These research race? i thinc have chances in small galaxy, rushing few powerful rocket cruisers, or in huge galaxy, where have possibility to colonize significant part of galaxy.

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:43 pm

Logrus wrote:Previouis save7 with 284 pop at 100 turn is great. Generally, if i play uni +2 prod subterranen (my favorite) race, i considered that 180 population with researched and builded up robo miners and atmospheric renewers , by turn 100, on most colonies is very good result. That game started on pre-warp tech ? I lresearch tech in such order : research lab, automated factory, pollution processor, robo miners, atmospheric renewer, cloning center, supercomputer . In Moo2 v 1.31 i researched cloning center after automated factory, but in vdc (at least vdc 27) robo miners and cloning center is deeper in tech tree. Therefore, in vdc it is much harder to build strong economy and population by turn 100, maybe it is better to research supercomputer after pollution processor?

Standard tech path for uni is the following: rlab-afac-biosphere-clones-robotic factory- supers- pol proc-soils-fusion drive-robo miners-autolabs-atmos- war techs
Non-standard tech path is the following: rlab-afac-pol proc-massive expansion (building 10 cs min)-bios-clones-supers-soils-fusion drive-autolab - hvy armor - robo miners-atmos-war techs;
And there is rush strategy, when you don't research autolabs and go for war techs straight after robo miner. In this case you should get them not later than t110 and attack at 116 or earlier if rush is allowed by preliminary agreement.
In any case with unification you need about 200 pop by t 100. Less than 200 is underperformance.
Last edited by Overlord2 on Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:52 pm

Logrus wrote:Today tested research-oriented race,(Demo/+1research/sub/cre), and cannot imagine how do they can compete with uni+2 prod at productivity and population.Even with +40 morale (holo nad cyber-network) it have 20 - 30 % less productivity. In populatio9n quantity, all ever worse. These research race? i thinc have chances in small galaxy, rushing few powerful rocket cruisers, or in huge galaxy, where have possibility to colonize significant part of galaxy.

This creative race is no good. The best creative race is considered dict, sub, +100 pop, +0.5 BC, rich hw. Average result for this race is 150-160 pop by t100 and imperium by t110.
The best tech race is considered dict sub lith +100 pop and demo sub +100 pop +0.5 BC rich hw.
Performance: about 180-200 pop by t100 imperium(federation) and hightened intelligence by t103-105.


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