Modifying tech-trees & some tech: a better balance?

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Jaadre
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Modifying tech-trees & some tech: a better balance?

Postby Jaadre » Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:09 am

Hi guys,

this is my first post here: congratulations for this wonderful forum! :D

Obviously I'm a Moo2-maniac, and I'm going to show you some tech tree modifications that may interest some of you.

I started modding Genetics and Chemistry areas (they are such complete: it depends on other-area-techs I have not yet modified that may be related with these two).

Mods have been done in order to speed up some dinamics of the game and slow down other ones, to change or eliminate some useless techs, but, most of all, to get more coherence and balance (in my own opinion), and to make the game beauty be less dependent on the racial ability "CREATIVE".

If someone is interested in it, I will go on in complete the other tech areas, and upload them in the next weeks.

And now some questions:

can everyone tell me what he thinks about it, and if it's possible to modify the tech tree this way with some WinXP-related program? (I don't know if and how OCS works under WinXP)?

And also: is what I asked before possible for the 1.31 win-version of the game? I cannot run dos version on my pc.

Many thanks.

P.S.: in the Genetics area, you will find many modifications to standard techs... but the one I like more is the one concerning Atmospheric Renewer, a building that would have a maintenance cost of 5 BCs instead of 3, and would allow to quarter pollution and also transform a Toxic Planet into a Radiated one.

Here a link to the discussion where I posted about it.

Ah.. and sorry for my not so good English! :?

Here are the mofications

Image

Image
Last edited by Jaadre on Sun Oct 26, 2008 2:02 pm, edited 5 times in total.

c'g~
Posts: 80
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Location: Ukraine

Balance is really hard to achieve.

Postby c'g~ » Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:29 pm

A greeting to fellow European, Italy is not so far away from here, you know?

So Jaadre, when I checked your ideas for MoO2 here I reached the conclusion that we are very alike: open minded, somehow naive (no offence here toward you) and very creative human beings (you even renamed Tech Fields and some Techs like I did in EXPa!!).
My firs message on this forum was similar to yours: at that time I was sure, that everything is simple like that. But harsh reality was far more depressive than I thought: not many people was even willing to try to understand what I’m implying and even less people want to contribute their thoughts about it in constructive way.
So, I want to help you somehow, because I like you style and you remind me myself. But please – be patient and rational, what I will say next may be not so pleasing to hear (for example I was taught something like this in much harsher way). So please don’t hold a grudge towards me.
So about your ideas…


First of all, the MoO2 is competitive game, so it has its own metagame, which dictates the RULES of viable choices.
A bit complicated I think. Hm, simply what I want to say is: in competitive gameplay you MUST make effective decisions, which is based on metagame, which is based on competitive players and game features themselves (in terms of MoO2 it’s mostly Tech Tree and Tech themselves).

So referring to my little speech, let’s look at your interpretation of MoO2 Tech Tree.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Let’s start with Chemistry.

Extended Fuel versus RHull – on first glance everything alright here: rush based races or expansion (production/population) based races will pick Extended Fuel, while research based or “late game” races will pick RHull. But, in reality only rush based races will pick Extended Fuel, because they need it for ability to reach their opponent fast and without additional expenditure (and rush races don’t need RHull because of timing and suddenness of their attack). Every other race WILL pick RHull, because it’s literally suicidal in late game to have disadvantage like not having Rhulls.
Moreover, what about first Colony ship – starting on advanced level (which is most balanced way to start with) you have 2 frigates and 1 Colony Ship, but with ExFuel not in Prewarpal anymore you will not have them in your pocket already, thus you can’t fly to far, so it’s really slow down the pace of the already slow game, but most importantly it can destroy one of the players right of the bat, when his first Colony Ship will not reach any nearby Star System.
While Productive races can somehow do well without ExFuel with building outpost ships, but unfortunately for Research races they just can do this at the beginning – so this tech field is practically killing blow to research based races.
In conclusion, without any other modification to tech tree (which can be done, because I can predict them) this field must be redone or scraped.

Tritanium versus Deuterium – it’s obvious, everyone will pick Deuterium – it’s one and only Fuel Cells Tech which you will need in the game. Moreover, soooo early placement of Zortium just confirm this – you easily can skip Tritanium and go for 900 Zort (in fact Zortium is much much effective compared to Tritanium, Trit can’t compete with Zort at all).
In conclusion again, this field must be redone or scraped.

Merculite Missile versus Pol Proc. Again, it’s practically one and only anti pollution tech, what you will use the whole game. It’s very effective, fast to tech, easy to build, low maintenance and most of all – it’s only available anti pollution tech in the beginning. On the other hand, you can skip Merculite Missile because of wide choice of other weapon systems in the game (and other more powerful missiles later on).
Obviously without any other early anti pollution techs Pol Proc is only choice here.

Zortium versus Heavy Armor versus Iridium Fuel. Like I said earlier – Deuterium it’s all what you need, so Iridium can be discarded right from the bat. So it’s Zort vs Heavy Armor. The choice is obvious: With Heavy Armor and Titanium (you will not have Tritanium because of Deuterium Fuel choice) you will have for Battle Ship 150/50. While with Zort you will have 200/200 without any amount of used ship’s Free Space. Yes with Heavy Armor you will have invulnerability to Armor Piercing, but with free space used and with so less health compared to Zort it’s no cost effective. Moreover zort directly influence HP of Fighters and Ground Combat Ratio which is matter.
Edit: type of Armor does not influence HP of missiles (thanks to Cabman for info).
So, Zortium all the way.

Pulson versus Nano disassemblers. I’m sticking with chosen tech path, thus player will need powerful missiles (because Merk was skiped). And with pol proc disassemblers will not be so drastically effective. In other hand if player will remain without advanced Missile – he will be as good as dead in that case.
So, Pulson here.

Neutronium Armor vs Urridium – choice was made already at the beginning, we don’t need anything except Deuterium. Thus Neutronium Armor.

Zeon Missile vs Microlight. At this level player will have MIRV Pulson and that is more than enough. So Microlight.

Adamantium vs Torium. I think I do not need to say something here. Adamantium.

Recyclotron vs Molecular Proc. I’ll explain it with example: Recyclotron will add from 20 to max 35 Prod based on population (so for effective use you need to build it on planets with big population). The Mol Proc tech will reduce pollution to nothing. So late in the game when you will achieve this tech you will have 250-300 prod from planet and pollution can be something about -150. So you will gain 150 additional Prod.
I think numbers tells for themselves – Molecular Proc here.

End of analysis.

In fact when I finished analyzing Chemistry I noticed another Tech path which can be taken: RHull > Deuterium > Poll Proc > Heavy Armor > Disassemblers > Neutronium > Zeon > Adamantium > Recyclotron. It’s a bit risky (late advanced armor and missile) and suits more for Tech races and late game dominance, but it can be done.

In the end I want to say, that I tried to be as much constructive as I can. All my statements here is based on experience, which was adopted from more experienced players and/or was acquired from real or test MoO2 games and of course do not forget experience of modding. But of course, something may be off, mostly because of lack of other Tech Tree branches modded by you (so I count it like other branches is unmodded).

Anyways, I like what I see here – if you add there deeper knowledge about metagame and Game itself, will gain some experience you WILL be able to shine. I’m absolutely positive about it – you have what it takes.

Best wishes and more importantly Inspiration in creating (next time I’ll talk about Genetics),

c’g~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>
Last edited by c'g~ on Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Cabman
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Postby Cabman » Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:49 am

Moreover zort directly influence HP of Missiles, Fighters and Ground Combat Ratio which is matter (especially missiles HP).

armour has no influence on missile hp.

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Jaadre
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Location: Italy

Postby Jaadre » Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:57 am

Wow... I'm realizing that I'm really a dabbler, a dilettante here!!! :D

You can't imagine how I'm smiling in front of my pc right now!

Thank you a lot for the whole analysis you did: it's impressive, I like it and it will help me a lot.

About my "errors" in placing technologies (generating "bad" tradeoffs), can you link me any list concerning war-techs values (like Tritanium armor value and Zortrium armor value, for instance)?
This will help me so much.

And also: I will wait for your analysis about the Genetics tech-tree, 'cause that one is the only definitive one (there are no other relations, I think, with the other research areas)... while the others are in continous change.

In the meanwhile, I show you some modifications I just did to the chemistry tech tree: do you find any improvement?

( I moved Extended Fuel Tanks to Construction tech Tree, as unique technology in a prewarp step )

Image
Last edited by Jaadre on Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Cabman
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Postby Cabman » Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:02 am

http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin ... 7873/16743
you can find some good stuff here...enjoy

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Jaadre
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Location: Italy

Postby Jaadre » Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:14 am

Thank you, Cabman. Very useful.

Nothing concernig armor/structure/drive values?

(And, if I can ask, what is your point of view about my lucubrations? :D )

c'g~
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Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:26 pm
Location: Ukraine

You are improveing!

Postby c'g~ » Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:21 pm

Hi there!

I will do a brief review of improved Chemistry Tech Tree Branch.

It’s clearly seen that you are improving. I was really impressed when you figured out the way how to equilibrate “bad” tradeoffs concerning Armor:
You just did what I did. You changed the multipliers of Armor. Still not quite there because of lack of experience, but still it’s the right way to go.

But, back to subject: still the Deuterium will be chosen even with Tritanium like +250% arm/str. Why is that? It’s because Zortium just on 600RP and like I said earlier without any other changes Deuterium is all what you need out of Fuel Cells.

Merculite versus PolProc – still unchanged. Without any other early anti pollution tech PolProc will be chosen every time.

Zort, Neutronium and Adamantium are placed with Fuel Cells. It’s not quite a choice there – everybody will pick Armors: after early Zort there are big gaps between armor Types, so because of this everyone will pick Armors when they will reach them (moreover with not so much choice).

Pulson/Disasemblers and Recyclotron/MolProc still unchanged. Thus the verdict still the same like last time – not good without other changes.

RHull and Heavy Armor is singles – nice move, but they can be placed with other techs as well (if you ran out of ideas just try to shuffle techs randomly and try to balance what you’ll get after shuffle: you will achieve very interesting results).

Zeon versus Microlite. What can I say: I like it, good tradeoff.

And now some bad news. In MoO2 many things can be changed, but at the same time many things can not. For example, number of Tech fields per Tech Tree Branch.
Chemistry Tech Tree Branch can have only SEVEN tech fields (hyper-advanced do not counts). But your version of Chemistry has twelve Tech fields – it out of our hands now.

I know, it is frustrating somehow, but do not give up your ideas: what happened to your interesting idea with Extended Fuel Tanks?
Yes, what I said earlier about major drawbacks of start without ExFuel is true. But it’s true ONLY without any other changes – everything can be balanced. In fact EXPa modification has some very questionable tradeoffs at first glance. But it’s one of its zests.

You ARE improving: just let limitations inspire you to overcome them.

Cheers up Jaadre (Biology analysis still not done yet: I’ll do it next time for sure)!

c'g~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>

pk-warmoo
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Re: Modifying tech-trees & some tech: a better balance?

Postby pk-warmoo » Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:00 am

check warmoo mod for better balance :)
Regards,

PK

pk@warmoo.com / http://www.warmoo.com- new WarMoo Mod for Orion!


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