Rules question

How-to and support discussion for game play over internet.
Arma
Posts:3
Joined:Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:18 am
Location:Amsterdam
Contact:
Rules question

Postby Arma » Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:49 am

Just a simple question.

I see a troopship and a frigate coming to my planet. I quickly design and insta-build a ship to stop them (i had some stored production). Once they arrive I engage because i thought i would be able to handle a single frigate with my cruiser and thus destroy the troopships.

Once in the battle i discover that the frigate is much faster than my ship, although my weapons were better, i simply couldnt get close enough to hit it.. (it was my mistake to only put on point defense but that is beside the point here). I try to chase the frigate around for a time hoping to maybe trap him into a corner or something.. But before i was done trying the other player logs off and tells me I don't know the rules, and that I should have been the one retreating because I should never have engaged the battle if I wouldn't be able to hit him. (off course I didn't expect not being able to hit him). After the game i hotseated to see if I really couldnt hit him, and he was right. (but if i wouldn't have just put on point defense weapons it would be a whole other story).

Off course, the result of a retreat would be that I would lose my planet on the next turn, since I wouldn't be able to get a new strong ship there so quickly. But how could I have known that I wouldn't be able to get near his frigate? How would you ever know? You can never be sure, at least not with my limited experience. Is it better to stay in orbit, and have your planets blocked while you get a fleet there that is 100% sure to be able to do something versus that frigate?

In principle I agree to the rule that if you both dont have the weapons to Damage eachother's ship you shouldn't engage, but in this battle I had the weapons, but not the speed. (and i didnt know)

From a logical perspective however, I think the frigate should have retreated, since he's the one continually fleeing the fight anyway.. And also, eventhough the frigate may be so fast, I can't imagine the troopships being so fast also. Then again, logical perspectives should be thrown out of the door if they hamper fun play... (so for me there is a big difference between two ships that can't hit eachother, in this case i think a retreat of the attacker is much more reasonable)

Can somebody shine some light on this, and maybe give me an advice on how to deal with this? Also I couldn't find the website containing a suitable rule for this, although I do remember reading them once.. i can't find them on lordBrazens site.

Off course I'm sorry the whole thing happened like this, and I'm posting this to prevent it from happening again. (this was Siron vs PsionShaper game)

EDIT EDIT EDIT>.
just figured out that if i would have retreated from the fight I engaged, my ship would stay in orbit and my planet would be safe.. this kind of seems to solve the whole thing. I also misinterpreted some of the things Siron tried to explain to me because i didnt know about that..

User avatar
ALEX|D
Posts:306
Joined:Fri Jul 29, 2005 12:54 pm
Location:Germany NRW
Contact:

Postby ALEX|D » Thu Aug 04, 2005 10:05 am

Off course, the result of a retreat would be that I would lose my planet on the next turn, since I wouldn't be able to get a new strong ship there so quickly.
If u engage on ur own system u can retreat and ur fleet stays, cos its ur colony. The other need to engage to be able to invade.

Always have some missiles, who can kill such FFs.

But u were new, u cant know all. :wink:

User avatar
siron
Posts:504
Joined:Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:35 pm
Location:Hamburg
Contact:

Postby siron » Thu Aug 04, 2005 10:18 am

Heh. a lot of misunderstandings i guess.

1st it was a dd. ;) and i dont like to self-destruct it.
But before i was done trying the other player logs off and tells me I don't know the rules, and that I should have been the one retreating because I should never have engaged the battle if I wouldn't be able to hit him.
I dont have said "that you don't know the rules". I have asked if you know them. For example, that my ship (and also your ship) isnt forced to leave orbit after wasting 50 rounds...etc.

"that I should have been the one retreating" thats no rule but approriate because I also had 170 bd and you just 115 ba.

"I should never have engaged the battle if I wouldn't be able to hit him."

I have not said this. I said you should retreat when you realize it is impossible to hit me. we played 8-9 turns or even more...hitting wait wait wait...you havent fired a single shot. and i wont play such game whole 50 turns. If u find players in the community who enjoy it...fine.

"Off course, the result of a retreat would be that I would lose my planet on the next turn, since I wouldn't be able to get a new strong ship there so quickly."

Your Edit shows that you now know that this isnt true...and the whole battle was strategically totally unimportant. Therefore I asked if u know the rules...it is unimportant battle...just waste of time.

"From a logical perspective however, I think the frigate should have retreated"

Dude, have u realized that your ship had warpdiss? And I wont self-destruct a dd u couldnt hit.

Arma
Posts:3
Joined:Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:18 am
Location:Amsterdam
Contact:

Postby Arma » Thu Aug 04, 2005 10:27 am

There are still a lot of things in the post I would reply to, but to keep things nice I won't and give you last word.

A different thing, does anybody know which person gets to choose first whether to engage?

User avatar
ALEX|D
Posts:306
Joined:Fri Jul 29, 2005 12:54 pm
Location:Germany NRW
Contact:

Postby ALEX|D » Thu Aug 04, 2005 10:51 am

I´m not sure. Maybe its luck.

Maybe it has to do with, whos fleet stays on a star and whos fleet in arriving.

But what happen when both arrive at the same turn ?

Its like what happen when two players, arrive a arti at the same turn who gets the arti techs ?

User avatar
Gusset
Posts:99
Joined:Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:36 am
Location:Vancouver, WA, USA
Contact:

Postby Gusset » Thu Aug 04, 2005 6:47 pm

Hi Arma,

Welcome to Kali MOO2...I hope to see you online sometime, it's a really fun game and a good group of people.

-Gusset

User avatar
Lord Brazen
Site Admin
Posts:162
Joined:Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:16 pm
Location:Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: Rules question

Postby Lord Brazen » Thu Aug 04, 2005 7:04 pm

Also I couldn't find the website containing a suitable rule for this, although I do remember reading them once.. i can't find them on lordBrazens site.
Most are still abiding by the old TSL rules. Here is a link. Most of rules still apply.

http://www.masteroforion2.com/4381/tsl.htm

I will post some updated rules and guides for new players in the near future.
"Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through." - Confucius.

User avatar
ALEX|D
Posts:306
Joined:Fri Jul 29, 2005 12:54 pm
Location:Germany NRW
Contact:

Postby ALEX|D » Thu Aug 04, 2005 7:48 pm

Many Players, many opinions about rules.

TSL rule:

"1. WAITING. The Attacker is defined as the player who initiated the combat action by selecting the opposing fleet for attack in the combat window. The Defender is the player against whom that combat was initiated...."

Alone with this rule I saw much trouble.

Some Players on Kali see rule how it is on TSL as default, some Players see "Attacker has only 1wait" as default.
This rule, for example, has need to be discussed, before u start a game (espeacially if it is a ladder).

Further u need to discuss "Tech Bans", usually "Statis-Field" is bannd, but some Players play with Statis-Field.
All "cloacks" and "subspace teleporter" r sometimes bannd too.

Often we make some "Restart-Rules", like a Urich ng in HomeWorld is a restart etc.

User avatar
PK
Posts:88
Joined:Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:47 pm
Location:Poland
Contact:

Postby PK » Fri Aug 05, 2005 7:26 am

TSL:
"1. WAITING. The Attacker is defined as the player who initiated the combat action by selecting the opposing fleet for attack in the combat window. The Defender is the player against whom that combat was initiated. Either player may use the WAIT command on his ships during combat, but if a waiting contest develops, with each player trying to outwait the other, it is ALWAYS required that the Attacker move, fire and hit done with his ships BEFORE the defender is required to. Note that it is perfectly possible that the owner of a system will attack an incoming enemy fleet, making the owner (and strategic defender) the Attacking player. If that attack fails, the invading player may then initiate combat in the same turn, making the invader the Attacker for this second combat round. Thus, in a single game turn, at a single system, each player may be both an Attacker in one battle and a Defender in another battle for purposes of the WAIT rule. (Logic: A battle turn can stalemate into an endless cycle of waiting, so some rule must be applied to force an end to the cycle. This rule is designed to place the burden of fighting on the player who initiates the fight, which is as reasonable as anything else.)"

1 wait attacker rule was designed for 4 ways mostly. When battles cant be too long.

Old tsl says nothing about 1 wait. Main rule was always that defender has LAST WAIT. And its default for all games!

PK
PK

User avatar
siron
Posts:504
Joined:Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:35 pm
Location:Hamburg
Contact:

Postby siron » Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:08 am

Main rule was always that defender has LAST WAIT. And its default for all games!
Well, I could mention here now many players who see this different. (Even ladder-players.)

User avatar
PK
Posts:88
Joined:Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:47 pm
Location:Poland
Contact:

Postby PK » Sun Aug 07, 2005 10:37 am

Let them speak for themselves. Im open for arguments. If u find any!

PK
PK

User avatar
dirt-bag
Posts:33
Joined:Sun Jul 31, 2005 8:16 pm

Postby dirt-bag » Sun Aug 07, 2005 2:24 pm

i have strong opinions on this debate.

i much prefer the old rule to the new rule. however, the vast majority of players abuse the wait button as attacker. hitting wait with absolutely no ethical reason to do so. many players do it because 'they can' it is in the rules. this is assanine behaviour in my opinion.

if attacker hits wait to check if defender hits wait, the attacker is hoping for an advantage in the defendor thinking the attacker has actually hit done and not wait (as he had no reason to hit wait, because defendor could hit wait until attacker hits done)

so now when i play most players if i am defending and want last move i am forced to scroll thru my entire fleet hitting wait a minimum of 3 times per ship.

i think players who hit wait, pretending to be done should automatically lose the game. and be told in no uncertain terms they are wasting everyones time with stupidity.

i have seen many players do this, players who think they are good at this game. anyone who hits wait because it is the rules that they can has absolutly no clue. a skilled player can and will recognise when wait is appropriate and will use the wait button with discretion. the skill here is social grace, without it we have no community. if u cant play this way dont look me up for a game....

User avatar
siron
Posts:504
Joined:Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:35 pm
Location:Hamburg
Contact:

Postby siron » Sun Aug 07, 2005 2:38 pm

Let me just quote the last StarLeague President Cybersaber:

http://masteroforion2.blogspot.com/2005 ... 5037872720

Each Combat round during a battle the Attacking player may use the Ship Wait option ONCE.

----------

When this is teached by him it sounds incorrect to me that the old rule is DEFAULT for ALL games.

----------

dirt bag has good points.....what about fixing this problem? Could LB make it possible to watch the wait-done decision of his opponent? Would this be useful?

These wait-rounds are silly.

User avatar
PK
Posts:88
Joined:Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:47 pm
Location:Poland
Contact:

Postby PK » Sun Aug 07, 2005 4:29 pm

I played Cyber many many times. Rule of one wait was almoust never kept in battles. All players I played almoust never use only 1 wait. Plus Cyber cannot change the rules of TSL. And if u look at my post - TSL says nothing about 1 wait. I admit however we can differ in law`s interpretation. Each of us has own moo2 vision. I respect 1 wait in some situations. But mostly in 1v1 games I and my opponents just use the last wait rule. Attacker is in already bad position, so punishing him with only 1 wait per ship is not a good thing. Try to attack a WD system in late tech game when enemy has simmilar techs and fleet. Not only u will have to attack, but also u will have to meet a planet adding initiative to enemy plus his possibly larger fleet. If u sum it up with 1 wait - any resonable player will hold his attack cos risk is too high.

"These wait-rounds are silly."

Wait option is critical in many battles. I dont see anything silly about wait rounds!

PK
PK

User avatar
ALEX|D
Posts:306
Joined:Fri Jul 29, 2005 12:54 pm
Location:Germany NRW
Contact:

Postby ALEX|D » Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:01 pm

We have no "default" with the "wait" rule.

I had,~1 Year ago, a huge "conversation" with Brutalisk. I thought TSL was default rule, while he thought Attacker has only 1 wait.
We never continued, the ladder we played.
Main rule was always that defender has LAST WAIT. And its default for all games!
I always thought 1wait was default, after I playd Brutalisk. Short time ago I played with dmitry, and he was using TSL-Rule. Then I realized, we were using different "defaults".

Thats why it is so important to discuss this rule before u play, to avoid trouble.

In 1on1 its okay to use more waits, but in 4ways a "Players time" is a huge factor, so I prefer 1wait rule for 4ways.


Return to “Internet games”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests