Cyber (+2Fact) MOO1 to MOO2?

Discussion about Master of Orion (the first game in the series)
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Time
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Cyber (+2Fact) MOO1 to MOO2?

Postby Time » Sun Apr 02, 2006 6:45 pm

I liked the advantages (+2 Factories) the Meklar had in MOO1.
Too bad we can't create something similar in MOO2.
There is a cyber discussion there but, not like this topic.
can it be done?
MOO1 Fan, MOO2 Fan, MOO3 needed too many changes = hopeless, getting older waiting for a MOO4 (still).

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siron
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Postby siron » Tue Apr 04, 2006 4:16 pm

I dont understand exactly.

You want that the cybernetic and 2prod race picks are combined?

Or just that the stockrace meklars have the 2prod race pick?

The latter is easily moddable. My DC mod and DD mod have meklars with the 2prod bonus. See the modification section for details.

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Postby Time » Tue Apr 04, 2006 8:54 pm

no,
In MOO1, the Meklar's advantage was the ability to build 2 additional factories per planet, more than their limit. Everyone could research Improved Robotic Controls 3,4,5,6,and 7. For them (Meklar) Imp.Rob.Con.7 could build 9 factories/person/planet, instead of 7. For a population 200 planet this would mean 1800 (200x9) factories could be built on that planet, instead of 1400 (200x7).
A different system back then. A guess the closest similarity, would be permitting, the cybers to build an additional of each of the following buildings: Automated Factory, Robo Miner Plant, and Deep Core Mining.
:idea: Perhaps, just the 1st two.
I remembered playing the Meklar defensively. I would wait out the opponent. Forcing the opponent to attack me 1st, usually unsucessfully, or just stall, while I maxed out the number of factories/planet. Creating enormous amounts of production. That was the difference between the Klackon and the Meklar. The Meklar had to build factories to get their production, and the Klackon got it naturally, by just being a more productive race. This also made their planet (Meklar) more of a prize when captured.
In MOO2, everyone can build the the same number of factories/planet. There is no distinction between cyber and the other races, And thus this advantage is lost, making them weaker and not usually played as often.
:( .
Come to think of it, this lead to different strategies too.
:arrow: The Meklar would construct fewer, but, huge ships.
:arrow: The Klackon, hundreds of tiny ships and swarm you (like ants). Kind of a warlord like pick, in MOO2 terms.
Did I clarify that?
MOO1 Fan, MOO2 Fan, MOO3 needed too many changes = hopeless, getting older waiting for a MOO4 (still).

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philcha
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Postby philcha » Wed Nov 29, 2006 3:00 pm

Time understates the differences between MOO 1 and MOO 2 economies:
  • In MOO 1 you don't have different grades of "factory" (Auto Fact, Robo Miner, etc.) and you increase production by building more factories up to a limit determined by population and Robotic Controls level. Initially most races can usefully build only 2 factories per unit of pop. If you research a higher level of Robotic Controls you can build more, but you have to spend some GDP on upgrading existing factories before you actually get any more. You can reduce the upgrade cost by other research. The maximum level is generally 7 factories per unit of pop.
  • The output of citizens who are not supported by factories is feeble for most races, = about 10% of a factory. The exception is the Klackons, each of whose citizens generates about 50% of a factory's output.
The Meklar's advantages are:
  • For any given level of Robotic Controls they get 2 more factories per unit of pop.
  • As soon as they research a higher level of Robotic Controls they can build more factories, without first paying for an upgrade.
This simply does not map on to anything in MOO 2.

MOO 1's Klackons are the nearest to MOO 2's +2 prod, and on a new colony they build factories faster than anyone else.

In MOO 1 the Meklar build factories on new colonies no faster than anyone else, and their racial advantage only starts to have effect when most of their planets have max factories at the current Robotic Controls level and they research a higher level - and then build new factories without upgrading first. This advantages is most significant in the mid-game, when they can have twice as many factories per head as other races. When everybody is maxed out on Robotic Controls level and factories, the Meklar have 9 per head and others have 7 per head, which is less significant than an advantage in military technology.

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additional factory?

Postby Time » Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:35 pm

:D Yes, you got it!

What I was trying to find out was, :idea: could someone who chose the cyber race pick, somehow be able to build and additional factory, such as Automated Factories, or Robo Miner Plant, or both? :?:
This would take them longer to build all of their factories, but, eventually when built, give them an advantage in production/planet over a non-cyber, if they survived the delay.
Obviously, another player could rush the cyber player before these factories were built, and before their ships are complete, and beat them. I have noticed in vs. comp games, comps tend not rush often, which makes the game last longer. This would probably be more useful, if intregrated into the game, in single player mode. Which means it's unlikely, if even possible, that it would be done, as the modifications tend to be for multi-player mode exclusively.

Reguardless, back to the original question, is this possible?

Someone wants to stack battlescanners, I want to stack 1 or 2 buildings on tha planet only, and only for those who chose the cyber pick.
MOO1 Fan, MOO2 Fan, MOO3 needed too many changes = hopeless, getting older waiting for a MOO4 (still).

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Postby Time » Mon May 21, 2007 9:42 am

Wow, almost 6 mons. have past.

I guess this cannot be done?
MOO1 Fan, MOO2 Fan, MOO3 needed too many changes = hopeless, getting older waiting for a MOO4 (still).

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Tifi
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Postby Tifi » Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:19 am

There is no 1:1 mapping between the industry of MoO1 & 2.
Simple as that.

If you look at it another way though you may be able to achieve a similar effect.
Say if picking Cyb. gives a flat bonus to the output of any factory buildings.

The difference between 7 & 9 is roughly 30%, so lets give our imaginary cyberfacts. an extra 30% output, but for the sake of balance make these factories a bit more expensive both for building and maint.
This way you only get the bonus by building your specialised factories and although you can't physically build any more, the ones you can build are more effective - which amounts to pretty much the same thing.

All it takes is looking for the flag which says: 'This race is Cybernetic'
and then tacking that multiplier onto the industry bar.
It's quick, it's dirty, and no, I don't know how :P

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Postby Time » Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:31 pm

Ahh... Like MOO3.
It gives all cybers a +40% bonus to manufacturing.
I guess anything that gives them a bonus of +17 % or more would be an improvement.
17%, assumes an abunbant world, no +prod bonuses.
consumes -.5 prod/pop. (about 1/6 loss for a terran planet)
MOO1 Fan, MOO2 Fan, MOO3 needed too many changes = hopeless, getting older waiting for a MOO4 (still).

Astax
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Postby Astax » Sun May 03, 2009 2:57 am

Hmmm I would like Cyber to function in moo2 in the following manner. Your basic Auto factories/robo factories would not make any hammers on their own, unless you were a cyber race. Or they would make more with cyber, like +5 for auto factory, +10 for robotic factory.

I think the current state of Cyber is bad, because the -1/2 requirement is paired with +1/2 hammer requirement. So Net you don't gain anything. In fact you lose quite a bit. This is because you can't transport hammers, and the game always rounds up 1/2 to 1 for purpose of transporting. So if you have 1 man housing on a planet, it is using 1 food and 1 freighter, which sucks.


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