On Cybernetic

General discussion. Please use this area for any off-topic discussion.
Darkwind
Posts:5
Joined:Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:42 pm
Location:Ohio (next to, but not in, Canada)
On Cybernetic

Postby Darkwind » Mon Mar 02, 2009 5:44 pm

First: I'm a new guy, both to MOO2 and this forum. My calculations could be off, slightly or massively. Don't go easy on me just because I'm not a veteran like you guys, I want to know quite why you guys don't like Cybernetic. I'd love it if you posted why you disagree (or agree) with me. It makes me feel less ignored :D

So, as I was lurking on this forum, I noticed that many of you, if not all, seem to rather dislike Cybernetic. The reason I most commonly saw was that it decreased production. I was bored and had time on my hands (or rather obsessed with this forum late at night after I should probably be sleeping), so I decided to do some testing (or rather, number-crunching--I didn't actually play out a few games with Cybernetic to see how it would work). Keep in mind that for all of these I assumed you weren't trying to build anything at the time, and could thus devote all of your spare people to whatever occupation suits your desires. So, the results of my late-night number-crunching frenzy were these:

Assume that we have a full Medium Abundant Terran world, for 12 pop and 2 food per farmer, 3 production per worker, and 3 science per scientist. No buildings, to simplify the scenario, though further detaching it from actual gameplay.

Without Cybernetic, this world would require 6 farmers. That leaves 6 people for science or production, with a total of 18 science or production for this single planet, minus pollution of course..

With Cybernetic, the world requires 3 farmers and 2 workers. This means you have 7 free people, for 21 science or production, minus pollution--an extra person, while a small bonus, is nothing to scoff at.

Now, to set up my next 'test'--a normal agricultural world has all 12 population devoted to farming. This produces 24 food-enough to feed one other world. A Cybernetic world has only 10 population to farm, resulting in 20 food-still enough to feed two other worlds, with room for a third of another. That's a big difference.

A normal production/science world, fed by an agricultural one, produces 36 production/science (12 workers * 3 production/science). A cybernetic one can only devote 10 population to working, with the other 2 providing 'maintenance' production, and produces merely 30 production or science. This sounds like a horrible handicap, right? Read on!

So, say we have 12 worlds (same type as before), each one specialised to have only its specific population type, splitting the non-farming worlds down the middle between science and production. The 'normal' race requires 6 farming planets, the Cybernetic only 4. The normal race has 3 production and science worlds, for 108 industry/science (36*3). The Cybernetic race can devote 4 each to industry and science, with 120 total production and research (30*4)! They do have the handicap of producing less per world, though.

An interesting side-note: by decentralising your science worlds' food supply and converting the extra two agricultural worlds to science worlds, you actually end up with a slightly larger total of 126 research (21*6), or 2 extra scientists (ie one per 1 farming world/2 science world group). The same goes for production, though this further weakens each individual planet's power.

IMPORTANT NOTE, read this even if you skip this other boring stuff! These advantages are probably due to the fact that on an Abundant Terran, a single population can produce more production than food. This means that Cybernetic races have no agricultural advantage on Poor worlds and a disadvantage on Ultra Poor, unless you took +1/+2 production, in which case you're fine (though still less powerful comparatively) on those worlds. So, unleash a Cybernetic race on a Huge Ultra Rich Gaia and you have yourself a massive lead. To illustrate, Huge Ultra Rich Gaia industry, science and agricultural worlds (in that order):

Cybernetic: needs 5 farmers, with 20 workers for 160-13=147 production. Wow!
Normal: needs 9 farmers, with 16 working for 128 production. Notice that Cybernetic now produces more production on this planet, as opposed to less production on the Abundant Terran.

Cybernetic: needs 5 farmers and 2 workers, with 18 scientists for 54 research.
Normal: needs 9 farmers, with 16 scientists for 48 research. Once again, Cybernetic leads.

Cybernetic: Can devote 23 population to working, with enough food surplus to supply nine Medium Terran worlds.
Normal: Can devote all 25 population to working, with enough food surplus to feed 4 Medium Terran worlds. That is a large difference.

So, my conclusion: Cybernetic may, indeed, consume production points, but it also frees up population to create more, which more than balances it out--not to mention much easier colonisation of poor-environment worlds and the ship bonus. I would view Cybernetic as a poor man's Lithovore, with roughly half the effect for less than half the cost (only 1 point if you take -1/2 farming). It also synergizes well with picks that increase production or population (which you usually try to increase anyways), so if you want to focus on maximizing Cybernetic an Aquatic +2prod race would work well (I haven't tested that though, to see if it works). And that essentially wraps up my views on Cybernetic. I'd love to see how a fully-upgraded (Gaia, huge, all of the research/food/industry bonus buildings) planet would fare, Cybernetic vs Normal, and how a realistic empire (let's face it, finding 12 Medium Abundant Terrans is almost impossible, colonising only those even more so) would fare Cybernetic vs Normal. And, of course, other people's opinions On Cybernetic and why it's a subpar/par/awesome choice. :D

toroloco
Posts:3
Joined:Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:03 am

Postby toroloco » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:58 pm

You're forgetting to take into account that Cybernetic costs 4 Race Points, which could be used for some other benefit. Try adding +1 Industry or Science into the calculations (and remember those one cost 3 points)

Plus, once farming advancements are made, it takes fewer and fewer farmers to support your population, so the benefits of cybernetic are reduced. Food Replicators essentially wipe out the entire plus side of cybernetic.

My general feeling is that early on in the game, cybernetic doesn't give enough of a boost to justify its cost. Later in the game, it becomes irrelevant

Darkwind
Posts:5
Joined:Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:42 pm
Location:Ohio (next to, but not in, Canada)

Postby Darkwind » Mon Mar 02, 2009 9:50 pm

You're forgetting to take into account that Cybernetic costs 4 Race Points, which could be used for some other benefit. Try adding +1 Industry or Science into the calculations (and remember those one cost 3 points)
That's what I forgot about! Of course, as I said, Cybernetic goes well with -1/2 food, for a total cost of 1 point and only slightly more farmers necessary, unless you're taking -1/2 food anyways I guess.
Plus, once farming advancements are made, it takes fewer and fewer farmers to support your population, so the benefits of cybernetic are reduced. Food Replicators essentially wipe out the entire plus side of cybernetic.
I'd say Cybernetic has a synergy with increased food supply at least up until the point where even a normal empire can feed everyone with one planet, because those farming planets provide a much larger benefit. And Food Replicators, if I remember correctly, convert 2 production into 1 food, not to mention requiring being built--so a normal race using entirely Food Replicators needs 2 production per population, while a cybernetic race (assuming it decides to use them as opposed to surfing on their pseudo-lithovoric decrease in necessary supply) requires only 1.5 production per population.
My general feeling is that early on in the game, cybernetic doesn't give enough of a boost to justify its cost. Later in the game, it becomes irrelevant
To tell you the truth, I'm not quite sure how to completely maximize the benefit of Cybernetic for your race. Gear it towards using the less environmentally-friendly worlds by taking Tolerant (since, as I've said before, Cybernetic is essentially the poor man's Lithovore and makes colonizing barren, tundra etc. much easier)? Go for SubT/Aqua a massive population to get maximum benefit from your reduced requirements per population? I'll have to wait a while to really start trying out strategies (it's early in the school week for me), so I can't really say what the best bet for Cybernetic is (other than not picking it).

And, of course, you don't need to gear a strategy towards maximizing Cybernetic's usefulness. You could simply use it as a cheap semi-substitute for Lithovore if you want to free up farming population.

User avatar
Time
Posts:220
Joined:Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:27 pm
Location:Orlando, Florida, USA, Earth, Human Empire

Postby Time » Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:04 pm

Hi, welcome to the forums.

As one who has both liked cyber, and found it lacking, I'd like to through in some of what I've learned.

First, esentually your calculations are correct. For those of us who have played cyber races alot, or just done the math ourselves, we have come to the same conclusions too.

However, the cyber in-game races (like Meklar), stop at 10 points.
As toroloco pointed out, it's not the cyber race itself thats bad, its what you have to give up, to try to make it competitive vs a non-cyber race.
I have chosen some cyber races that try to overcome their loss of production to see how they stack up vs some non-cybers one could face in a human vs human game (not vs ai).
Vs. the computer (say hard lvl or lower), you can beat other in-game races. I have done this myself too.

For example:
CYBERS:
(6)Unification,(4)Cyber,(6)Prod+2,(2)Rich HW,(2)ShpAtk+20
(6)Unification,(4)Cyber,(3)Prod+1,(2)Rich HW,(5)Aquatic
(6)Unification,(4)Cyber,(10)Tolerant
(6)Production+2,(4)Cyber,(10)Tolerant

NON-CYBERS:
(6)Unification,(5)Aquatic,(6)Prod+2,(2)Rich HW,(1)Lg HW
(6)Unification,(5)Aquatic,(6)Prod+2,(3)Growth+50
(6)Unification,(5)Aquatic,(6)Prod+2,(3)Spy+10
(6)Unification,(5)Aquatic,(6)Prod+2,(3)Research+1
(6)Unification,(10)Tolerant,(3)Prod+1,(1)LgHW
(6)Unification,(10)Tolerant,(4)Food+1
(6)Prod+2,(10)Tolerant,(4)Food+1
(6)Unification,(5)Aquatic,(6)Subterranean,(3)Prod+1

All using the same negatives of: (-6)Repulsive,(-2)-10 GrndCmbat,(-2)-20 ShpDef.

If you analyze the races above (or try some vs. the cyber equivalant), you will find that the non-cyber race will usually have an advantage over the cyber.
MOO1 Fan, MOO2 Fan, MOO3 needed too many changes = hopeless, getting older waiting for a MOO4 (still).

Darkwind
Posts:5
Joined:Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:42 pm
Location:Ohio (next to, but not in, Canada)

Postby Darkwind » Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:16 pm

I didn't see this mentioned on your list, but I've heard a lot about a Demolith being a great tech race, and I was wondering whether a Cybernetic version might be possible. Specifically, I was trying to do this:
Democracy
Cybernetic
+2 Production
+1 Science
taking what I think are the 'standard' bonuses that seem to be talked about a lot (-20 Ground Combat, -10 Spying, Repulsive etc.). I don't have time to test it, or whether taking +2 science instead of prod might be better, for about a week. Any thoughts on it and its viability? Has anyone tried it (I remember reading some people talking about it in a thread)? Or am I going completely wrong by trying to substitute Cyber in for Lithovore in a teching race?

User avatar
Time
Posts:220
Joined:Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:27 pm
Location:Orlando, Florida, USA, Earth, Human Empire

Postby Time » Tue Mar 03, 2009 7:56 pm

This race is possibly better. I haven't tried this one, however, It is still lacking a pop max modifer (such as Aqua, Subt, Tol), so, it won't grow large pop planets, and doesn't have the Lith advantage of immediately colonizing worlds with 0 Food without having to construct freighters, nor its advantage of blockades having a lesser effect.

I'll try this race myself soon, but, my first thought, would be that at least two of the races I mentioned above would be better choices (UniAqP2R1, and UniAqSubP1) and as you mentioned DemoLith and with Prod+1.
The prod races will rapidly build colony bases and colony ships to have more planets faster, so, when Research Lab is researched they will have more planets to build them on, and faster on each of them.

A race with a higher pop max modifer (thinking of UniAqSubtP+1 here) will have much more population faster than this race you mentioned, and so, can have more pop researching to make up for not having demo like your race, and won't have the inheirent spy penalty of demo.
MOO1 Fan, MOO2 Fan, MOO3 needed too many changes = hopeless, getting older waiting for a MOO4 (still).

Darkwind
Posts:5
Joined:Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:42 pm
Location:Ohio (next to, but not in, Canada)

Postby Darkwind » Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:18 pm

If I'm correct, your argument is part of the core of the research race vs production race (research races get more early, but production races can get more later from sheer volume). Democracy's money bonus could help negate (though not entirely, since I usually end up swimming in money with even dictatorships; I'd think Democracy just allows that faster) the production penalty by hurrying the colony ships, hopefully getting them out roughly at par with the production races, or at least a bit earlier than otherwise.

For the lack of population bonuses, I suppose the +2prod and +1 science could be reduced to only +1 prod to take Aquatic+Large HW or Subterranean, but the trade-off seems a little iffy to me. In the long run, taking Subterranean could allow your colonies to be more productive, but an extra production and science per worker in the short run can be leveraged into quite a bit. Subterranean only really provides more than those bonuses in the mid-late game. +1 research provides a blanket +33% research per scientist early on unless you get an Artifacts world, +2 production anywhere from 200% more production per worker to 25% more. I forget exactly how much population Subterranean adds, but I doubt it's 33%+ population except in very poor-environment worlds. I suppose it's to my playstyle, since I rather like Terraforming anyways. Aquatic, though, might be useful (and synergizes with Terraforming as well).

A note I've been thinking about-if you sacrifice an extra prod per worker for +2 research, you can effectively get 7.5 research, per scientist, on every world. This is 250% of those Unification races that didn't get extra research, and still 1.5 more (or 25% more) than taking Demo and Research+1. That is, I think, a lot. I'm not quite sure what one would do with all of that research and somewhat less production, though. Race up the construction tree for production bonuses to offset what you didn't take? Charge up Computers for excellent aiming and even more incredible research?

User avatar
Overlord2
Posts:661
Joined:Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:25 pm

Postby Overlord2 » Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:21 am

Hi Darkwind,
This is long story, what you're trying to say. The short story would be amount of population you can grow by turn 100 of the game. Thus, how much population can you grow with the demo cyber race you pointed above?

Darkwind
Posts:5
Joined:Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:42 pm
Location:Ohio (next to, but not in, Canada)

Postby Darkwind » Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:35 pm

I don't know how much population I can grow since I haven't been able to test it yet. :P Right now, everything (on my side at least) is theoretical.

Also, I recently checked what exactly Subterranean adds (I haven't memorized everything in my short time playing MoO II), and it apparently adds +40% population even on a Gaia (2 times size class is 40% of 5 times size class), even more for lower-environment planets. So, nevermind, Subterranean is fairly certainly more powerful than that extra +1 production/research (though not in the very very early game I guess). So we're now up to demo/cyber/subt/+1prod, versus demo/lith/+1prod (what I was building off of). This also brings to mind uni/cyber/subt/largeHW/+1prod, though that's similar to the uni/cyber/aqua/richHW/+1prod that Time mentioned.

User avatar
Time
Posts:220
Joined:Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:27 pm
Location:Orlando, Florida, USA, Earth, Human Empire

Postby Time » Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:27 pm

I did test that 1st race you mentioned, and I thought I was doing ok (considering I had no pop max modifier), however, even the base race Trilliarians, on hard had 1 additional system that I did (I forget the turn), and more pop.
Also, other things to consider.
The game balances the map, somewhat, to the race you choose.
When I tested your race choice, I encountered more poor and Upoor worlds. I usually find this when I build a prod race.
Just like most of my Aquatic races find more water based planets near them, my High-G races find more High-Gs near them, Warlord +50 attack races have the worst.

Also, the map size, number of opponents, richness all factor in race selection. For example, while, Liths and Cybers do well in Mineral Rich maps, Aquatics do better on Organic Rich maps. On small maps with wormholes a Telepathic rush race can spoil your game very fast, and high pop max races do well on maps with few habitable worlds. Tolerant races don't ever have to chose pollution processers, so, will always have merc missiles early.

So, you might find the "perfect race", but, the game might just work against you.
MOO1 Fan, MOO2 Fan, MOO3 needed too many changes = hopeless, getting older waiting for a MOO4 (still).

Astax
Posts:82
Joined:Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:19 pm

Postby Astax » Sun May 03, 2009 2:43 am

I find cyber without tol pretty worthless. With tol in the VDC mod they are OK. They can't out grow or outproduce UniAqua variants, but they hang in there (At least I can't playing them :( ) And I would think with heavy armor and something like Zortium they would be pretty evil with their ship repair bonus.


Return to “General Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests