Space Empires V thoughts, comparison with MOO2 (LONG)

[Gusset]

OK, I have now played enough Space Empires V that I think I can post a few halfway decent thoughts on it. Most of the game reviews out there were of initial release of the stock game, which had many bugs and needed design tweaking (the game's producer set a date for release that was overly aggressive). Since most of the big bugs have now been squashed, and since modders have addressed many of the design aspects, I figured it was time for a report. MOO2, which in my mind is (still) the best 4X game ever produced, will be my datum in this write-up.

I have come to like SEV. It has now been patched to the point that it is very playable as a multiplayer game, especially for purposes of two player duels. There are still a few bugs I'd like to see fixed, but none that prevent me from thoroughly enjoying the game. I have never really taken the time to play much single player, so I can't personally comment on the strength of the AI. However others state that with one of the mods, it is nearly tolerable.

THE SHORT SCOOP IS THIS: If you are looking for a straight across replacement for MOO2, look elsewhere. This isn't it. It's a nearly totally different animal as far as actually playing it goes. I'll try to compare the two games using several aspects to describe what I mean.

If one wants a straight-up answer to "Which game do you think is better?", it's a tough question because they are of different breeds. However, I can say that IMHO, MOO2 is a better game of its type than SEV is of its. Don't take that as a slam on SEV, because it's a very good game.

One of the strengths of SE5 is that it was designed to be modded (including a scripting language). In fact, when you start a game, one of the things you have to actively choose is whether you want to play the "stock" game, or if you want to play one of the mods you may have installed. This has had the effect of allowing the game's developer to chase down bugs in the code while a few competent modders have overhauled things like tech balance, AI performance, ship sizes/planet type definitions/weapons/defenses, etc., in similar fashion to the efforts of folks like Lord Brazen and Siron. I have done all of my playing using what is called the Balance Mod, which is widely accepted in the SE5 community, and is the basis for all games played in the KOTH league ("King Of The Hill", which is similar to the MOO2 ladder in some ways).

Focused comparative thoughts:

1. SEV goes into deeper levels of detail than MOO2 does. For instance, I don't know how many tech categories and sub-categories there are in SE5 for sure, but 50 is not an unreasonable guess, and each has many different levels. Planning a tech strategy is much more involved than it is with MOO2 (SEV uses sliders for research control). This trickles down into other aspects of the game, in particular ship/base/fighter design, especially if you are in a war to the death and are counterdesigning. Another example of detail is resources. You have to mine for mineral/organic/radioisotope resources before you can build with them, and facilities and ships require resources every turn for maintenance (roughly analogous to Command Points in MOO2). You don't have to pay uber-attention to it on a turn-by-turn basis, but there have been times where my build queues have ground to a halt because I didn't have enough resources in storage.

2. SEV uses warp points/starlanes. Initially I considered this to be a negative. However I was not taking into consideration that star systems are not abstracted as they are in MOO2...they are maps unto themselves that must be traversed. If you want to attack a planet, for instance, you need to warp your fleet into the system and then move from the warp point to the planet, which could take a turn or three, during which your fleet could be attacked. Moving ships from rear systems to the front sometimes takes quite a while since you may have to traverse several solar systems, which changes how you build fleets.

3. Combat. In single player games, the player can actively control his/her ships during combat. In multiplayer games, however, the computer controls your ships according to strategies that you define, using parameters such as target prioritization, range to attempt to keep to the enemy, damage levels at which an enemy ship is to be ignored, when to retreat, etc. Each ship design can have a unique strategy if you so desire. You can test and tweak them through the use of a combat simulator against any ships that you have knowledge of, and it's actually quite fun, especially when you devise tailored strategies that succeed in beating seemingly superior forces. The system is not perfect, though. It's easy to wish for more control, some of the strategy definition parameters are a little bit unclear and took time to understand, the strategy definition UI is in a different menu from the simulator, and formations implementation needs work (it's usually best not to use them at all). However there is easily enough control to reward a player who puts thought into it. One final thought on this: designing strategies for specific battles is quite fun, but it can be a time sink.

4. Ship design: In general, the concepts are similar between MOO2 and SEV, so I can actually make a direct comparison here between the interfaces. MOO2's is better. As expected, detail level is higher in SEV (e.g. armor and shields amounts and engines can be varied, you can place some components in inner or outer hull, etc.). In SEV you also design any starbases you build, and you also design your fighters. There is a very large degree of diversity in terms of weapon types, armor types, shields, and systems.

5. Time requirements. A game of SEV between competent opponents, even if it were played straight through with no breaks, could take days (unless you use the "ministers" to drive a lot of your empire). Once past a certain point, I can expect to need at least 30 minutes to take my turn, longer if there's a war going on. It's worse for someone like me, who spends a lot of time tweaking combat strategies in the simulator when combat is imminent and as my ship designs progress.

6. Multiplayer handling: after about turn 20 or 30, given the time requirement, this game does not seem (to me) suitable for direct-connect play between micromanagers, as the potential difference between player turn-taking time can get much wider than even the biggest gulfs between MOO2 players. PBW ("Play-By-Web") seems to be the best way to go about it. When a new turn is ready, it emails you a notification, you go to the web site, download the turn file, unzip it, and go; when all players have uploaded their new orders, the server executes the turn and the process repeats. Pace can vary; generally, in a developed game between two players, one turn every 24 hours is a decent clip during the week (get home from work, eat dinner, download the game file, enter my orders, upload them). Sometimes I've taken 2-3 turns per evening if we're both on similar schedules, and over a weekend two determined players can crank out 10-20 turns depending on the game. On the other hand, life being what it is, sometimes days will go by before one or both players can get a block of time to take their turn. For >2 player games, the pace slows to about a turn every 48 hours and is usually forced (i.e. AI takes your turn if you haven't submitted your orders on time); games involving >10 players are not uncommon.

7. Game personality and quality: what can I say? Nothing compares to MOO2 as far as game personality goes. Moving little people around your planets, getting a visual of the developed surface of your colonies, having a Sean Connery lookalike tell you when you reach a new tech level (if you're human, at least), demands for Cream of Celery soup, watching little colony modules descend into the atmosphere of newly colonized planets...MOO2 has personality. SEV is a fun game that is doing a fine job of holding my interest, but MOO2 makes it seem a bit bland. Also, SEV does not seem to be as efficiently coded as I'd like it to be. It's a resource hog, even when all it's doing is sitting there waiting for input from the player. Given the complexity of the game's design, though, I can forgive this.

There you have it. This game is not for everyone, and it has its plusses and minuses. It is not a suitable replacement for MOO2, but is more like a different world of 4X gaming. There's a lot more that I could say, but this is already a mammoth posting. Some love SEV, some hate it, and some see it as having conditional potential "if the developer will only fix THIS and make THAT the way *I* want it".

Personally, I like it.

If anyone wants to know more, or has any specific questions of comparison, post 'em.

[Matthew]

I played the demo some. It has it's good parts and bad. At least it does have multiplayer and tactical combat. I guess it just didn't appeal to me all that much. It felt kind of like getting teeth pulled for the fun factor.

[marhawkman]

Ok I didn't read all that, but I like the game. Tech research feels more "natural" in SE. you have incremental advances and what not instead of a few semi-random peices of technology. The rest of the game cannot be said to be superior(though I can't think of any that are weaker), but the tech research can.

[Matthew]

Ok I didn't read all that, but I like the game. Tech research feels more "natural" in SE. you have incremental advances and what not instead of a few semi-random peices of technology. The rest of the game cannot be said to be superior(though I can't think of any that are weaker), but the tech research can.

That's one of the nicer things about SEV. I think the game just needs more character and some good humor. The stock game is very bland.

MOO2s tech tree is sufficient but it really shouldn't be a choice between different techs. Since the laws of physics are universal, all techs should be available as though everyone were playing a creative race. It should just take some races longer to discover the technology than others. This is one area where games like GalCiv2 and SEV are better. I prefer the simplicity of the Civilization IV tech-tree myself. I'm not sure how difficult it would be to do a Civ-like tech tree with 4X space games but it shouldn’t be impossible.