Remaking MOO2

Information, How-to's, and discussion about mod'ing Master of Orion II.
Melancor
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Remaking MOO2

Postby Melancor » Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:31 am

Yes, you have read correctly. I am working on a clone (if you will) of the original MOO2. The platform used for this project is Mark Overmars' Game Maker, so don't expect a professional full-size production. Also, due to copyright issues, I don't intend to make a big deal of it - in a sense that there won't be any advertisement and certainly no commercial use. I'm only doing this for fun, and - you probably can't talk me out of it ;)

I won't be using any of the original layout design or graphics (with exeptions), but the entire game is designed from MOO2 rules as best as I can - at least I have done so until now. Intended changes are:

- REAL-TIME, and that's why I'm starting this topic - to dicuss inevitable
changes in gameplay due to real-time mode, particularly in ship battle.

- DOOM STARS shall play a different role, as they funtion as slow but
mobile STATIONS (like outposts) for fleets, making it possible to travel
unlimited distances and attack, as well as colonize remote positions.

The current state of development involves: galaxy creation, research, planet colonization and maintenance, building production, food distribution via freighters, moving colonists, etc. The next steps shall involve ship movement, planet invasion and bombing, diplomacy and spy stuff. Enemy AI and network stuff (multiplayer) are at the end of the list.

I am totally aware that by removing the "next turn" button, even with variable game speed, I am ripping the game play to pieces. Before I continue, some feedback from this community is essential. What do you think about the changes I am considering to make? And, since I never looked into modding MOO2, which modifications are recommended?
Suggestions of any kind are welcome. A solid demo may be expected this year, but I can't promise anything. Exept that I am confident and quite dedicated to this project.
A programmer is a tool which turns caffeine into code

MadViper
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Re: Remaking MOO2

Postby MadViper » Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:49 am

...I am totally aware that by removing the "next turn" button, even with variable game speed, I am ripping the game play to pieces...
It is great, that someone wants to remake MOO2, since it is the greatest stragegy Game ever created.

But doing this while changeing one of the most Important Core-Features of this Game ist rater Stupid.

Gorean
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Postby Gorean » Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:55 am

I hate to say it, but I had the same feeling when I first read this thread. That said, I think that we feel that way due to our love of the game. I can imagine that there could be some fun in a version of MoO2 that played in real time, though I do not think that I would enjoy it too much. It would have to be for a select audience, just as the current one is.
Vita multis dat nimis, satis nulli.

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Gusset
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Postby Gusset » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:22 pm

I'm willing to consider the potential of a semi-RT MOO2 effort.

If it were done in such a way to generate a specific "pace" of play, and did not result in a frantic play experience, it could work.

I guess what I mean would be sort of analogous to enforcing a turn timer to the current MOO2, to make players have to choose where to spend their time.

I don't know what this means for combat, since I don't play RTS games. However one suggestion might be to give the player a way to organize fleets in such a way that they can start combat in a ship formation of their choosing.

The Doom Star idea sounds like a good thing, as one difficult MOO2 characteristic to swallow is that increasing ship size does not lead to reductions in speed and maneuverability like it should. If nothing else, it will keep Death Star type ships from maneuvering with BBs and cruisers.

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Fri Jul 31, 2009 3:33 am

Actually in MOO3 combat was realtime. If it could be improved considerably, this approach might work. Otherwise making moo fully realtime is total failure if not to say more. It will become a game on speed - who faster can manage his empire. This is the main shortcoming of all RTS: in RTS dominates speed of control rather than strategy.
Last edited by Overlord2 on Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

Melancor
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Postby Melancor » Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:42 pm

Thank you for the replies, I will keep asking for your opinions as much as I can. Glad to see that this forum is vital and responsive (you can tell I'm an alibi poster).

If real-time turns out to be unplayable, I probably won't trash my work, but rather focus on a more fluent multiplay.
A programmer is a tool which turns caffeine into code

MadViper
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Postby MadViper » Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:07 am

If you need some inspiration for combining moo2 + Realtime, have a look at an old Game called "pax imperia".
It is an old a real time somehow mmo2-like strategy Game with some nice UI Ideas (for example an editor, where players may choose and save multiple complete planet-buildlists which your colonies use automatically) Some of these ideas may be very useful for your Game, because they may greatly reduce the amount of necessary input (mouseclicks) without lowering the amount of gameplay-Options. For example it is possible to force all Planets to build a new powerplant on all planets first with only one klick on this global Build-Priority List.

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Time
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Postby Time » Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:55 pm

I am trying to imagine this game without a turn button.
You say RTS, so, something like Starcraft?
With buildings having a building progress bar below them,
and us hearing a message like, "Battle Scanner research complete."
Cybernetic races would consume food and production resources, like food and crystal.
That sounds intesting.
How will you impliment non-obvious race picks, such as Heavy Gravity, Telepathic, Lucky or Repulsive?
Will you have leaders just pop-up at your home planet?
Will there still be random events, wormholes?
How will you limit pop? or will Subterranean/Aquatic/Tolerant lose this benefit?
Will there still be waste for tolerant to be advantageous?

It sounds like a good idea, however, without the familiar MOO2 names and style, it will likely turn into a very different game indeed.

With all of the 1st person shooters out there, it would still be a refreshing game.
Also, check out Warhammer for inspiration. The PC game has many different races (7 or 9, I think), one uses a morale like boost for its units.
Good Luck. :D
Last edited by Time on Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
MOO1 Fan, MOO2 Fan, MOO3 needed too many changes = hopeless, getting older waiting for a MOO4 (still).

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Gusset
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Postby Gusset » Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:47 am

Time's post got me to thinking about this for a minute.

One of the reasons I have shied away from RTS is because the of the issues I imagine in balancing combat: in my mind, it needs to be fast enough that the player can't think things through for a long time (ie there needs to be just a bit of pressure), but at the same time it should not be so compressed that the player with the fastest reflexes/PC/etc. always wins.

Having said that, if you aren't already familiar with it, have a look at the strategic combat system in Space Empires 5. In that game, you can take tactical control of your ships and fleets in combat, but that is NOT what I am referring to. In multiplayer games, the combat is resolved outside of direct player control. The player sets up simple combat strategies and assigns them to ships and task forces: what range to try to close to (long range, short range, point blank, ram), whether to fight independently or to maintain formation, what targets to prioritize (closest, most damaged, largest, slowest, etc.), when to stop firing at a target (go for total destruction, all weapons destroyed, etc.), when to retreat, targets to avoid shooting at, etc. The player also has the option of assigning ships to fleets for convenience, and task force formations.

When combat is joined, the game runs it as a real time event with ships controlled by these parameters. The player is not directly involved, so there's no possibility for a "click fest". At the same time, ship design and preparation make a significant difference in the outcome, so the player has a definite role, and the combat can be replayed so the player can see what happened.

Space Empires 5 has a few bugs in the combat implementation (mainly a couple of more complex combat strategy functions that the coder did not implement), and there are aspects that I'd like to see changed (such as how ships with different speeds stay in formation together), but overall it works well, and it's certainly easy to examine as an option since the game has a combat simulator. It might be worth considering as a compromise for your RTS vision.

-Gusset


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