"Very Difficult Choice" Mod, irc channel: irc.quakenet.org/vdc

Information, How-to's, and discussion about mod'ing Master of Orion II.
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Overlord2
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Re: "Very Difficult Choice" Mod

Postby Overlord2 » Sat Sep 19, 2015 12:39 pm

Sorry, I don't understand your concern. Were you trying to say missiles are underpowered, because there is free battle scanner?

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Dukinson
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Re: "Very Difficult Choice" Mod

Postby Dukinson » Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:25 pm

Well, in vanilla battlescanners weren't free. They were in competition with the very desirable tach com tech. So, why were battlescanners handed out for free in your mod and Roccos? Missiles. Rocco is even thinking of taking it up a notch and boosting base computers, has already done so in the past.

Players routinely start the game with solid missile ships, even with free battlescanners. If you have some ships attack picks, warlord, or could justify early targeting computers, you may not need battlescanners so badly. It's not beams that should be brought up, it's early game missiles that should be brought down and battlescanners seems like a strong freebie. Perhaps fighters and other tactics might make it into the mix more easily as well. Beams get nuts later on, giving this early game advantage to beams just makes the game a beam autohit fest. It's rather monotonous. At least in my humble opinion.

Free battlescanners devalue SA and SD picks, warlord, crew training in general, existing computer techs and more. I admit it's hard to pass up BS even over tach com and perhaps it should be moved up the tree a bit and/or nurfed slightly, but if missiles weren't such an appealing alternative, it wouldn't be such an issue to feel the need to boost the advantage of early beams.

In short what I'm suggesting is, hurt early missiles, restore early game weak beams and level out the playing field. Increase battlescanner price and reduce effectiveness (-10 or so). This will add value to the neglected ship combat picks and nonmissiles/beam weaponry.
Last edited by Dukinson on Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Darza
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Re: "Very Difficult Choice" Mod

Postby Darza » Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:37 pm

IRC chat is really missing you, dude. The people there need a real troll example, as they sometimes confuse me with one, and most of them are missing your hilarious show, so cannot educate themselves on that topic, as they are skipping the forum.

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Dukinson
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Re: "Very Difficult Choice" Mod

Postby Dukinson » Sat Sep 19, 2015 10:05 pm

Darza wrote:IRC chat is really missing you, dude. The people there need a real troll example, as they sometimes confuse me with one


Oh noOo no! They confused you with a troll? How could they make such a terrible mistake? You simply must tell me their names and I will talk to each and every one of them. Then I will arrange to meet with this band of disparaging individuals in a group setting with festive drinks and music and discuss how this injustice could happen. WIll this be similar to a party? Well perhaps a little but I'm willing to do this for you, you poor misunderstood soul. Don't you worry my innocent Darza, I will be certain to clarify who the real troll is between the two of us. 8)
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Bob Smith
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Re: "Very Difficult Choice" Mod

Postby Bob Smith » Sun Sep 20, 2015 9:58 pm

Hi Overlord2. I have a question for you. I noticed that the Antarans come ridiculously early at Impossible level (t90-100), and judging from many of your posts and others, people are able to mount a reasonable defense against the antarans. I however, cannot. I believe it has to do with my race pick loadout. Can you give me some tips on how you manage to get such high research by that time, and the tech required? MP games are rough. I'm playing on Average, Organic Rich. Excellent mod btw.

P.S.
There was a glitch I noticed with the Avenger looking like a scout, and either having a garbage loadout or having +1000 beam defense and 100 combat speed. Basically ridiculously overpowered or a piece of garbage. Makes Orion sort of not worth it, being guarded horrendously and no bonus techs given (that I've seen).

Playing on 58b at the moment.

clembo
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Re: "Very Difficult Choice" Mod

Postby clembo » Mon Sep 21, 2015 12:22 am

Hi,

First time posting here. Just wanted to mention that I noticed a bug in 58h. Per the readme text, you are allowed to select up to -12 Race traits; however, I found that this current version of VDC has a limit of -10. To make sure I was correct, I used pickhack.exe to modify one of the race traits to -10 instead of -12...went through the custom race process and confirmed that I could select -10. You also had an -11 option (but I don't recall which one it was). When I selected a -12 or -11 trait, I received a message informing me that the max negative trait is -12 and would not permit me to select those traits.

Also wanted to say thank you for your work on MOOII via VDC; you've done a fantastic job on it. I thought vanilla was tough until I came across VDC (version 57 at that time).

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Overlord2
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Re: "Very Difficult Choice" Mod

Postby Overlord2 » Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:22 am

Dukinson wrote:Well, in vanilla battlescanners weren't free. They were in competition with the very desirable tach com tech. So, why were battlescanners handed out for free in your mod and Roccos? Missiles. Rocco is even thinking of taking it up a notch and boosting base computers, has already done so in the past.

I have already mentioned above, but I can repeat. Battle scanner is a must have tech for the beams to work properly with current beam attack beam defense ratio. If you put it in the tech tree it will be always taken, while other techs which will be in the same tech field will be killed. Not to move the other techs away from the game or make them solely creative's addition, I made the battle scanner tech free. I also believe your statement that battle scanner is great helper vs missiles when you have no autofire and other mods for laser is wrong. Damage from unmodded lasers won't be enough to stop the large salvos of missiles.
Players routinely start the game with solid missile ships, even with free battlescanners. If you have some ships attack picks, warlord, or could justify early targeting computers, you may not need battlescanners so badly. It's not beams that should be brought up, it's early game missiles that should be brought down and battlescanners seems like a strong freebie. Perhaps fighters and other tactics might make it into the mix more easily as well. Beams get nuts later on, giving this early game advantage to beams just makes the game a beam autohit fest. It's rather monotonous. At least in my humble opinion.

OK, now you sound clearer. We should outline the conditions, in which the missile strategy is applied. I suppose we talk about blitz with nuclear missiles. And I assume it is human player game. AI is so much flawed it is pointless to discuss AI. We should also establish, which game modification we talk about to have no misunderstanding later. I will talk about VDC in this thread. Now the question is what is your task force [particularly what kind of ships and their design] and when it will arrive to the enemy. I.e. how much time he got on preparation and what weapons/technology he can put up to defend from blitz. Another factor to consider is what was the initial strategy of the defending player. As it was pointed in another thread it could be "Boom", "Blitz" or "Defense from Blitz". Next question is what were the race picks of the players, i.e. if it included any war picks, and if yes, what were they. When we establish these conditions we can talk more precisely about missile strategy.
Speaking in general, level 0/level 1 nuclear missile strategy can be repelled with the same amount of ships equipped with level 2 laser. By level I mean level of miniaturization. My general attitude towards missiles is they were never OP, but could be used effectively only in short time span and under certain conditions.

Free battlescanners devalue SA and SD picks, warlord, crew training in general, existing computer techs and more. I admit it's hard to pass up BS even over tach com and perhaps it should be moved up the tree a bit and/or nurfed slightly, but if missiles weren't such an appealing alternative, it wouldn't be such an issue to feel the need to boost the advantage of early beams.

This is not true. You can't hit ships well with simple battle scanner if they got additional defense. Therefore it changes the tactics.

Bob Smith wrote:Hi Overlord2. I have a question for you. I noticed that the Antarans come ridiculously early at Impossible level (t90-100), and judging from many of your posts and others, people are able to mount a reasonable defense against the antarans. I however, cannot. I believe it has to do with my race pick loadout. Can you give me some tips on how you manage to get such high research by that time, and the tech required? MP games are rough. I'm playing on Average, Organic Rich.

Hi, Unfortunately, I'll have to dissapoint you. I don't run the online college how to play this game. All I can do is to give couple of examples. Here are the saves from one of my game with antarans: http://www.speedyshare.com/Ds2Yu/SP-Elerians.rar
There was a glitch I noticed with the Avenger looking like a scout, and either having a garbage loadout or having +1000 beam defense and 100 combat speed. Basically ridiculously overpowered or a piece of garbage. Makes Orion sort of not worth it, being guarded horrendously and no bonus techs given (that I've seen).
Playing on 58b at the moment.

This bug was fixed in 58g.

clembo wrote:First time posting here. Just wanted to mention that I noticed a bug in 58h. Per the readme text, you are allowed to select up to -12 Race traits; however, I found that this current version of VDC has a limit of -10.

Hi, This simply means you have installed (or launch) VDC in a wrong way. I suspect it was a gog setup. I'd recomment to deinstall gog and install the game anew.

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Re: "Very Difficult Choice" Mod

Postby Bob Smith » Mon Sep 21, 2015 5:31 pm

That save pretty much answers my question. Can you give an example of an economic race build you use? That Elerian setup I've seen before (Just about), but the ship designs were accustomed to your mod, making it very strong. And do you find being creative much use with your mod?

Thanks for your answer, really helped.

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Overlord2
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Re: "Very Difficult Choice" Mod

Postby Overlord2 » Mon Sep 21, 2015 6:32 pm

Bob Smith wrote:That save pretty much answers my question. Can you give an example of an economic race build you use? That Elerian setup I've seen before (Just about), but the ship designs were accustomed to your mod, making it very strong. And do you find being creative much use with your mod?

Thanks for your answer, really helped.

You're welcome. By "economic race build" I mean the races, which include solely economy picks, i.e. no war picks, and which are capable of growing huge pop and economy. If you open .xls file, which is supplied with the installation package, there is a sheet called "Eco Weights". There you can find examples of such builds.

Edit: oops, looks like I misunderstood your question. OK, I will make the saves for eco race and post here. As for creative, yes it is viable in VDC, but it requires higher skills to show good results.

Edit2: OK, here it is: http://www.speedyshare.com/6qzjv/SubLit ... tarans.rar
Was playing sub lith 100. Managed to capture antaran interdictor on t150+ and took few crucial techs from it including death ray, quantum computer and subspace teleporter. Basically game over after that.

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Dukinson
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The Might Missile VS the Accurate Beam

Postby Dukinson » Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:41 pm

I was somewhat under the assumption that your mod was very related to Icemod, it's why I thought to invoke your opinion on this topic and why I thought you might be interested. It's only fair I speak of VDC if I speak here. So I downloaded it and booted it up and... wow. I could write a dissertation on the changes but I think I'll keep to this topic. First, I did realize that it appears you mean your mod to be mostly focused on MP. I would enjoy MP but I simply don't have the time. Let alone tactical MP, this is a monster time sink. It took me the better part of a week to finish a tactical game with Icemod. I can't imagine how long it would take with another person to wait on. Two weeks? :) I like taking breaks and putting the game down, single player will always be king to me. If I want challenge, what do I do? I declare war on everyone. Currently Icemod, and I assume your mod, is challenging enough I can't declare war on all races I contact in strategic combat. A side note, I would play test your mod more if you had this mode working.

You certainly go "balls to the wall" with ship attack (an Air Force metaphor). My first battleship started with 115 ship attack, I cheated to get it so I had it turn 2. My ship defense 40. Was this is the kind of ratio you had in mind? This is the kind of situation where you can sit across the map and wipe out fleets from the starting position and heavy mounts. It's a nutty level of ship attack to start the game with. You may start with ECM, but do you start with stabilizers? Even if you did, would it matter? Your offense would still eclipse your defense.

Overlord2 wrote:I also believe your statement that battle scanner is great helper vs missiles when you have no autofire and other mods for laser is wrong. Damage from unmodded lasers won't be enough to stop the large salvos of missiles.
I never made such claim although it's not a completely surprising mistake. I simply mean which weapon will destroy your enemy more effectively than the other in VDC. However since you've mentioned it, I may not stop all the missiles but I won't have to. They'll be dead. With this kind of accuracy there's even a fair chance my opening attacks would detonate their ships and, by that token, their missiles before they reach their target. In that case my highly accurate beam could infact handle the rest. Also, I wouldn't use lasers. I would use Mass drivers. By all accounts they seem the strongest "beam" early game.

That aside, I think you've done well to smash the superiority of missiles, it's the method I question. I will bounce back and forth, comparing VDC to vanilla and visa versa. I apologize if at any time it gets confusing.

When you say:
Overlord2 wrote:Battle scanner is a must have tech for the beams to work properly with current beam attack beam defense ratio.
Isn't that at least somewhat subjective? How accurate do you feel beams must be? Isn't this in part, personal opinion? Or maybe, this has something to do with the rocket propelled elephant in the room...

Overlord2 wrote:Damage from unmodded lasers won't be enough to stop the large salvos of missiles.
Aren't you saying right here in so many words exactly what I had originally stated? Boosting early beams is born of early missile might in vanilla. If you didn't utilize beam weapons because you did not find them accurate enough, what weapon did you use? Missiles. This didn't last forever, I absolutely agree. I suppose the main thrust of my argument is level the playing field at low tide and give it space to rise. Sure beams will miss early, they should and everyone will miss. If missiles become the problem there are many ways to solve that issue rather than devaluing the strength of warlord, crew training, advanced targeting computers, and ship combat picks which are rarely used in the face of powerful economy picks especially with this much surplus ship attack. When a country prints currency, it devalues that currency. When available ship attack is increased, other sources of it are devalued.

In vanilla it is true that battlescanner was a powerful tech when you likely only had standard targeting computers. The tech itself is a problem tech if everyone must have it. It was too powerful at 250 and it's certainly over the top to hand it out for free. If anything it should have been weakened and/or moved up the tech tree. A tech that triples your attack bonus that early is was too strong. At the same time, missiles should be weakened so players don't turn to a previously overpowered path early on and targeting computers should be more accessible in their more reasonable 25 point increments. Part of the problem is that you could select battlescanners and ignore advanced targeting computers in lieu of strong research techs. Shouldn't there be "difficult choices" not handouts?

Overlord2 wrote:This is not true. You can't hit ships well with simple battle scanner if they got additional defense. Therefore it changes the tactics.
With all due respect, I couldn't disagree more. You've even decreased the amount defense in the racial picks. Not only will I absolutely strike the computer almost every time with hyper accurate beams, I can't imagine how a human player could outpace my race for accuracy even if they ran as fast as they could. Although, this is not a race I will have to strain myself in. Turn 1 I will start with all the accuracy I need to shot down anything I like. To add to my ever increasing shock (excuse my hyperbole), you also bolstered ship attack picks. I'm going to have to go easier on Rocco for his comparatively moderate ship attack handouts. :D

I know this all sounds very critical but I won't say too much more until I've given your mod a fairer shake. I would be interested to see your counter argument in the area of ship attack balance in the meantime.
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Re: "Very Difficult Choice" Mod

Postby Overlord2 » Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:03 am

Dukinson wrote:I was somewhat under the assumption that your mod was very related to Icemod, it's why I thought to invoke your opinion on this topic and why I thought you might be interested.

Rocco is using VDC patch for his modding purposes. Nothing beyond that. These are two completely different mods.
First, I did realize that it appears you mean your mod to be mostly focused on MP.

Exactly. And balance of all weapons was committed assuming human player is the opponent.
I can't imagine how long it would take with another person to wait on. Two weeks?

Actually the turns are done simultaneously in MP game. And if someone finishes his turn faster he has to wait couple of minutes average for the opponent to finish his turn. Rarely you wait longer, like 10 min. It happens once or twice in the game and on condition the game went very late stage. Average MP game duration is 5 hrs. Sometimes it goes more than that if the game goes long (like someone got interdictors, etc). In that case you have an option to save the game and continue other time.
My first battleship started with 115 ship attack, I cheated to get it so I had it turn 2. My ship defense 40.

It means you have something wrong with design or the techs. With AM drives and augmented engines and no race penalty you have 100 defense. If you add inertial stabilizer it becomes 150 defense. The race with defense penalty will get 130 defense respectively. These are usual stats in MP games.

Dukinson wrote:
Overlord2 wrote:I also believe your statement that battle scanner is great helper vs missiles when you have no autofire and other mods for laser is wrong. Damage from unmodded lasers won't be enough to stop the large salvos of missiles.

I never made such claim although it's not a completely surprising mistake. I simply mean which weapon will destroy your enemy more effectively than the other in VDC. However since you've mentioned it, I may not stop all the missiles but I won't have to. They'll be dead. With this kind of accuracy there's even a fair chance my opening attacks would detonate their ships and, by that token, their missiles before they reach their target. In that case my highly accurate beam could infact handle the rest. Also, I wouldn't use lasers. I would use Mass drivers. By all accounts they seem the strongest "beam" early game.

Agreed, its not a complete mistake, i.e. battlescanner does help. What I mean is when you assume missiles are overpowered for a certain stage of the game, I have to figure out when this condition may possibly happen. I figure its earliest stage of the game when you perform blitz and before the enemy is able to research level 2 physics. However if you go and research level2 physics yourself and fly to the enemy with level 2 lasers its no longer blitz, but rush. Again the question is when you will hit the enemy and what he can do by that time.
As for mass drivers, level 2 laser gets more damage than level 0 mass driver, while research cost is about same.

Isn't that at least somewhat subjective? How accurate do you feel beams must be? Isn't this in part, personal opinion?

Beam attack should be about +35 above defense to hit well from mid range distance or +50~60 for long distance. I hope you have studied beam hit chances table before making any claims.

Damage from unmodded lasers won't be enough to stop the large salvos of missiles.
Aren't you saying right here in so many words exactly what I had originally stated? Boosting early beams is born of early missile might in vanilla.

How many times I should repeat that battle scanner placement has no direct relation to the need to defend from the missiles. We don't play blitz in general, while missiles could be OP only in blitz when you hit enemy before turn 50.

In vanilla it is true that battlescanner was a powerful tech when you likely only had standard targeting computers. The tech itself is a problem tech if everyone must have it. It was too powerful at 250 and it's certainly over the top to hand it out for free. If anything it should have been weakened and/or moved up the tech tree. A tech that triples your attack bonus that early is was too strong. At the same time, missiles should be weakened so players don't turn to a previously overpowered path early on and targeting computers should be more accessible in their more reasonable 25 point increments. Part of the problem is that you could select battlescanners and ignore advanced targeting computers in lieu of strong research techs. Shouldn't there be "difficult choices" not handouts?

Both in Vanilla and in VDC inertial stabilizer cancels the beams for ship-to-ship combat until better computer is researched. In VDC since the electronic computer starts at +50 attack the race with +25 beam offense bonus or warlord can already use beams in ship-to-ship combat with limited efficiency. But if there is no additional attack bonus, with 115 attack you can use beams only as a defense measure vs fighters and missiles. Now if you perform rush and attack enemy before he is able to research am drives, most likely he still will be able to get inertial stabilizer. In which case beams though more effective still won't be able to overhelm the fleet equipped with stabilizer. Alternatively enemy might be relying on ground defenses like missile base and fighter garrison.

Overlord2 wrote:You can't hit ships well with simple battle scanner if they got additional defense. Therefore it changes the tactics.
With all due respect, I couldn't disagree more. You've even decreased the amount defense in the racial picks. Not only will I absolutely strike the computer almost every time with hyper accurate beams, I can't imagine how a human player could outpace my race for accuracy even if they ran as fast as they could. Although, this is not a race I will have to strain myself in. Turn 1 I will start with all the accuracy I need to shot down anything I like. To add to my ever increasing shock (excuse my hyperbole), you also bolstered ship attack picks. I'm going to have to go easier on Rocco for his comparatively moderate ship attack handouts. :D

You know, such point of view could appear because you never had practice vs human players. AI doesn't give legitimate grounds to make any judgements in this aspect. If you had MP practice many of your questions would have never arised.
About defense. The reason why I decreased defense bonuses is because defense is viable pick only while taken dynamically in mutation, whereas mutation provides 5 points in VDC. +50 defense for 7 points, which was for long time wasn't ever used, since there were not enough points for it. Now you may ask why defense trait couldn;t be used from start. It could be, but if you consider normal game, not blitz, VDC provides many options to overcome enemy's defense advantage with weapons, which ignore defense. Such as Bombers, Heavy Fighters, Pulsars, Tractor Beams, Spatial Compressors, Shuttles, Plasma Web, etc. As soon as a player sees enemy's race he will adjust his strategy accordingly. So defense pick loses its value.
As for +75 offense which shocked you, +75 offense is comparable with molecular computer, while its not too difficult to research molecular computer by the time of war. Basically molecular computer provides enough bonus to use beams effectively on long distances. While cybertronic computer on long distances in many cases is not enough.

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Re: "Very Difficult Choice" Mod

Postby Dukinson » Sun Sep 27, 2015 1:46 pm

Overlord2 wrote:Beam attack should be about +35 above defense to hit well from mid range distance or +50~60 for long distance. I hope you have studied beam hit chances table before making any claims.

I have indeed seen the chart. So you're of the opinion that beam must hit well? I think I understand better now. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree here.

Overlord2 wrote:How many times I should repeat that battle scanner placement has no direct relation to the need to defend from the missiles. We don't play blitz in general, while missiles could be OP only in blitz when you hit enemy before turn 50.

I think you've said it the necessary number of times for me to believe it. :)
I'm curious. If beams were all changed back to vanilla values in your mod, just for arguments sake, what would be your strategy? Would you abandon beams because you would be dissatisfied with your accuracy? If so, what weapon would you use?

Overlord2 wrote:It means you have something wrong with design or the techs. With AM drives and augmented engines and no race penalty you have 100 defense. If you add inertial stabilizer it becomes 150 defense. The race with defense penalty will get 130 defense respectively. These are usual stats in MP games.

There was nothing wrong with my tech per-se. This was what I could start building the first turn, I believe I said that. Shall I repeat it?! Kidding, kidding! You certainly speak casually of AM drives and throwing 2 specials on your ships just for defense. I'm sure you'll want battlescanners on that ship too. Will you have anything left for weapons? Sure you'll dodge my ships but I can't imagine such a vessel would be all that threatening. Isn't it asking for a missile ship counter? I'm sure you know better than me.

Overlord2 wrote:Both in Vanilla and in VDC inertial stabilizer cancels the beams for ship-to-ship combat until better computer is researched. In VDC since the electronic computer starts at +50 attack the race with +25 beam offense bonus or warlord can already use beams in ship-to-ship combat with limited efficiency. But if there is no additional attack bonus, with 115 attack you can use beams only as a defense measure vs fighters and missiles. Now if you perform rush and attack enemy before he is able to research am drives, most likely he still will be able to get inertial stabilizer. In which case beams though more effective still won't be able to overhelm the fleet equipped with stabilizer. Alternatively enemy might be relying on ground defenses like missile base and fighter garrison.

Only if you spend the space to equip it, thus lowering firepower. I don't recall from this point but I believe battlescanners take less space in your mod than stabilizers. Infact, everything you do to counteract the ship attack lead costs space against a player who spent no space on his superior improved attack computers and a little on battlescanner. I get it though, you feel ship attack should edge out defense. Otherwise, with 115 attack I can only use my beams as defense when they simply have a stabilizer? That's a strong statement. I'm having a hard time envisioning these battles you are having in MP and how they are so over my head.

Overlord2 wrote:You know, such point of view could appear because you never had practice vs human players. AI doesn't give legitimate grounds to make any judgements in this aspect. If you had MP practice many of your questions would have never arised.
About defense. The reason why I decreased defense bonuses is because defense is viable pick only while taken dynamically in mutation, whereas mutation provides 5 points in VDC. +50 defense for 7 points, which was for long time wasn't ever used, since there were not enough points for it. Now you may ask why defense trait couldn;t be used from start. It could be, but if you consider normal game, not blitz, VDC provides many options to overcome enemy's defense advantage with weapons, which ignore defense. Such as Bombers, Heavy Fighters, Pulsars, Tractor Beams, Spatial Compressors, Shuttles, Plasma Web, etc. As soon as a player sees enemy's race he will adjust his strategy accordingly. So defense pick loses its value.
As for +75 offense which shocked you, +75 offense is comparable with molecular computer, while its not too difficult to research molecular computer by the time of war. Basically molecular computer provides enough bonus to use beams effectively on long distances. While cybertronic computer on long distances in many cases is not enough.

Haha, true! I have very little practice against human players. I can only run the theory in my head from what I would do against myself by examining your tech tree and racial picks. I'm sure your experience against others is fairly sharp. This is why I only went for one topic primarily, the valuation of ship attack and defense.
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Re: "Very Difficult Choice" Mod

Postby Overlord2 » Sun Sep 27, 2015 5:15 pm

Considering what was said above, I don't see point in continuing this discussian. You like to discuss some irrelevant and meaningless things. And the manner you conduct the dialogue also shows that darza wasn't wrong in his assumptions. You write your posts for the sake of writing, not for discussing or learning something. So, lets just stop.

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Dukinson
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Re: "Very Difficult Choice" Mod

Postby Dukinson » Sun Sep 27, 2015 6:05 pm

Wow. I thought my prose was rather light hearted. My apologies for the criticisms, I meant no disrespect. You've spent a lot of time crafting a fine mod and I hope you continue your work.
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Re: "Very Difficult Choice" Mod

Postby Overlord2 » Sun Sep 27, 2015 6:47 pm

There is no criticism, just irrelevant talk. If you want to find out something, come to the IRC and we talk it over on the spot, instead of littering the forum.


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