"Very Difficult Choice" Mod, irc channel: irc.quakenet.org/vdc

Information, How-to's, and discussion about mod'ing Master of Orion II.
Valprax
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Postby Valprax » Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:23 am

with the -6attack it already made charasmatic playable

Ive tested it many times now and if repulsive was say -4 then chara would actualy be overpowered at 1; at least for a relatively lucky player in true world sense -.- The current -6 is a good neg in this sense.

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:25 am

What I was saying : when you get the single tech existing on a level, you pass that level for free but when you sequentially get the 2 or three on the level, I think, from what I recall, that you end up being forced to research an empty box (empty level).
This is not the case, you don't have to research an "empty box". You skip this level completely. Proven many times.
You still didn't "get it":

Example 1: guy takes -6 attack, other no bonus; the other has a +20 advantage ; there is a 6 point difference in investment

Example 2: guy takes no bonus or penalty, the other takes the +20 for 2 points; the "other" get the same +20 advantage; there is a 2 point difference in investment

Example 3: guy takes +20, other +40 ; first pays 2, other pays 4; same thing
I don't understand how this could be utilized by someone. Since the picks are mutually exclusive you won't get +attack if you took - attack.
And yes. it's not symmetrical in this case, but it was done on purpose. The key point here that negative value is bounded. You can't utilize large values of certain negatives simultaneously, because it will exceed the maximum allowed.
The problem when selecting negative is to choose which one you're basing, like repulsive or something else. Repulsive is good for its 6 points. But it works as a supplier of free points (this is answer to Astax), because I don't want to make taking any serious negative compulsory. The other who takes different than repulsive negative will automatically become non-repulsive, which is big andvantage. For example, you will never be offered Kirsus, while being repulsive.
You may ask why. The reason is I want to leave free choice here: you take other negative, you get more points and become non-repulsive.
I simply ask to raise the maximum negative to -20 so I can stash more positives, if you can. If you don't think that is right, maybe at least -15. Or go for more positives, though you said you didn't believe in that.
If it is a matter of more positives, it's easy then. Just launch command line with picks=20 and you get 30 points together with negatives...
Last edited by Overlord2 on Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Ai_Mania
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Postby Ai_Mania » Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:36 am

If you are willing to cheat your way through false pick costs, why not make starting points the way they were in DC while giving the real value back to the picks?

In multiplayer, repulsive is clearly worth -2 , charismatic worth 2. But you want to cheat those values? Why don't you change the rules instead, keeping the real values, giving more points to start with? You can always say you actually picked repulsive...

And this is ridiculous, what is so hard to understand?!
-for wanting to get extra 2 points you pick minus attack. you are supposedly minus 20 attack versus someone who did not
-for not wanting to risk attack you don't pick. say your opponent does, +2, and he gets exactly the same edge over you; you are, again, two points ahead of him

THAT is logical thinking, not -6 for -20 then +2 for +20. And I said that for risk factors the extreme values have to be increased: -3 and +5

How hard can it be to understand???

PLEASE try to be fair and reasonable toward the real value of the picks, satisfy any other desires by correctly increasing maximum picks, not distorting and cheating to satisfy points.

Before I ever join the community, right now I have exams and play single player once in a while. Please tell me how to edit my own pick costs. :)

PS:
What do you mean by: "launch command line with picks=20 and you get 30 points together with negatives..." -> where and how do I do that? Is it a text document or a command somewhere?

PS again:

You people complain that everyone picks repulsive and never negative attack. There are two reasons for these: cheat costs that don't represent real values, like I said + everyone rushes for the standard build (no one would spend points on +attack, they were all spent on unification combinations). I think this is all a ludicrous situatoion with a clear solution:
-give real pick costs
-give a few more points
"Humanity is revealed in the games you play and how you play."

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:01 am

If you are willing to cheat your way through false pick costs, why not make starting points the way they were in DC while giving the real value back to the picks?
This is farfetched definition. How do you measure picks real cost?
And this is ridiculous, what is so hard to understand?!
-for wanting to get extra 2 points you pick minus attack.
I told you, if it cost 2 points for taking this minus, noone would take it since there are alternatives with the same cost, but less impact.


PS. Again, your logic isn't perfect here. If you're concerned with -attack, you should be also concerned with other stuff like +prod and -prod.
+1 prod =3 points; - 1 prod=10 points, seems illogical, doesn't it?
But logic here is that negatives are irrelevant to positive picks. You compose your race out of positives, and while doing so you compare impact of each positive pick by race performance. The same you do for negatives. This way you could assign right value for the pick. Not just by simple mathematics.
What do you mean by: "launch command line with picks=20 and you get 30 points together with negatives..." -> where and how do I do that? Is it a text document or a command somewhere?
Check item 3.2 "the 1.40 switches" at LordBrazen blog: http://lordbrazen.blogspot.com/2005/01/ ... h-faq.html
PS. looks like I made mistake saying you could launch picks=20. Max is picks=14. Sorry :oops:
You people complain that everyone picks repulsive and never negative attack.
I have picked negative attack several times when it was even less points (4). Other players also pick -attack, whenever they are up to it. See the above post by ValpraX.
Complain the ones who never play multiplayer :wink:

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Ai_Mania
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Postby Ai_Mania » Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:56 am

:) it's not my place to coplain. I still think that if the minus attack is so bad, you should ALWAYS take the +attack, sacrificing two points but being way ahead of you opponent. Great idea, no? It will only set you back two points. The same relative setback were for your opponent not to take the minus but for you to do it.

I also think you could easily get rid of your repulsive pick dilema by giving it -2, which reflects the real penalty it inflicts. My opinion is that industry is worth around minus six and has a mostly early game (low tech) impact (it is as if you get the factory but only take the independent 5 points without worker bonus). A serious setback for the start and for mass expanders.

The worst penalty, as I recall, was in credits. I couldn't move, I was always making trade goods to stay above zero.

By the way, can I edit points for my games? Their costs, aside the max allowed.

PS: I still don't know how to get the command line; it says there I have to edit the properties of a shortcut; I use dosbox, obviously, so I don't have any desktop shortcut regarding MOO2. Even if I did, it wouldn't make sense.
"Humanity is revealed in the games you play and how you play."

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Tue Jun 02, 2009 9:39 am

I still think that if the minus attack is so bad, you should ALWAYS take the +attack, sacrificing two points but being way ahead of you opponent.
What's the point of -attack for 2 points then? Enlighten please...
I also think you could easily get rid of your repulsive pick dilema by giving it -2, which reflects the real penalty it inflicts.
Supposedly I gave repulsive 2 points. What would be the negative set then?
Obviously uni also dict/cybernetic would utilize -food and gain advantage over demo: their set would be: - food - defense -spy -gc and since demo can't possibly take -spy it will be forced to take repulsive instead. Non-repulsive-> repulsive. Or demo will be forced to take lowG. Either way demo sucks.
My opinion is that industry is worth around minus six and has a mostly early game (low tech) impact (it is as if you get the factory but only take the independent 5 points without worker bonus). A serious setback for the start and for mass expanders.
What can I say: this statement shows you have no clue in understanding of moo. This is because of lack of mp experience. You should try online games to get more knowledge what is this game about.
By the way, can I edit points for my games? Their costs, aside the max allowed.
Sure, you could use pickhack utility. I have mentioned it above.
I still don't know how to get the command line; it says there I have to edit the properties of a shortcut; I use dosbox, obviously, so I don't have any desktop shortcut regarding MOO2. Even if I did, it wouldn't make sense.
It's even easier in dosbox. Just add this switch to your command line.
E.G.
orion2~1.exe /skipintro /nowh /noreport /richstart /planets=4 /noorion /nosplint /nobh /picks=14

Valprax
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Postby Valprax » Tue Jun 02, 2009 9:43 am

u dont need either actualy, there is a variety of strategy; Choosing +attack at the start of the game, is gonna make ur civilization buildup slower than the other player

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Ai_Mania
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Postby Ai_Mania » Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:01 am

What's the point of -attack for 2 points then? Enlighten please...

....

Supposedly I gave repulsive 2 points. What would be the negative set then?
Obviously uni also dict/cybernetic would utilize -food and gain advantage over demo: their set would be: - food - defense -spy -gc and since demo can't possibly take -spy it will be forced to take repulsive instead. Non-repulsive-> repulsive. Or demo will be forced to take lowG. Either way demo sucks.
That's funny ! If you can't take the negative picks you can't (without cheating) honestly afford all those positives. OR you can raise the max positives (I keep saying that's what I read was in DC)

On the attck issue, I'll try to rephrase but I know I will fail:
1. you take the penalty but opponent does not
2. you don't take penalty but opponent takes the basic bonus

-> in both 1 and 2 there is the same difference in attack power and for all fairness and reason in both cases there should be the same DIFFERENCE difference DiFfErEnCe in points IN POINTS iN pOiNTs between the two.
My opinion is that industry is worth around minus six and has a mostly early game (low tech) impact (it is as if you get the factory but only take the independent 5 points without worker bonus). A serious setback for the start and for mass expanders.
What can I say: this statement shows you have no clue in understanding of moo. This is because of lack of mp experience. You should try online games to get more knowledge what is this game about.
Yes, I don't. I admit. However, there is no way it's worth the -10. Max -8 in all comprehension. Even Unification compensates the industry fully and that costs 8 points at most while also giving food, spy defense and no worries for picking morale techs.
orion2~1.exe /skipintro /nowh /noreport /richstart /planets=4 /noorion /nosplint /nobh /picks=14
Yay ! I'll do that :wink:
"Humanity is revealed in the games you play and how you play."

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Ai_Mania
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Postby Ai_Mania » Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:05 am

u dont need either actualy, there is a variety of strategy; Choosing +attack at the start of the game, is gonna make ur civilization buildup slower than the other player
Exactly. 2 points behind for other picks to take. That's the point of COSTING. It means you spent something hoping that would give you an edge in initiative and attack power.

In the cheating way, a player would get ahead of you with 6 points for the same setback and for your same benefit (in attack). Only he would gain 4 points ahead of you compared to the first scenario.

PS: you are making me want to play "for real"... but, even if I prove my point being beaten less badly than expected, it's going to be a long game, a long prelude of getting the multiplayer going, and long turns, as well as days of pause caused by exams and.... that describes it. :)
"Humanity is revealed in the games you play and how you play."

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:13 am

It's always benefit to take maximum negatives, whatever pick layout. You can't make fair tradeoff between negatives and positives. Or if you lower negatives value so much it will be no sense in taking them, then yes, you could say it won't pay off to take certain negatives in order to take other positives.
Yet, you didn't understand my conception: positives come separately from negatives.
-> in both 1 and 2 there is the same difference in attack power and for all fairness and reason in both cases there should be the same DIFFERENCE difference DiFfErEnCe in points IN POINTS iN pOiNTs between the two.
Again, you don't understand conception. Positives are positives, don't mix them with negatives. When you spend 2 points of your positives on +20 attack, you spend 10% of your total picks. You're left 18 points for something useful for economy. If you spend even more points for military or other things, you'll be left even less points. There is always alternative cost of your choice, which will bite you severely if you made wrong decisions in resource allocation. For instance you take +20 attack means you lack rich hw. Or you take warlord means you lack +1 prod and etc. The result will tell on your population later. Less population equals less production, less RPs/per turn and eventually lost game.
At the same time the negative value is fixed. From the point of view of positive picks it doesn't matter how you acquire negative 10 unless you take something mutually exclusive. How to measure the appropriate value of the negative? You compare this negative with other ones and see the difference. From that point of view the repulsive pick doesn't reflect its real impact. But it works as a supplier of free points to allow better races. Just that. What if I lower repulsive to 2 points as you advised? Everybody will switch to new lesser evil pick set with current layout.
What will change from the game point of view? Many possible races will be cut because of forced negatives as there will be more mutually exclusive picks. This approach sucks. That’s why I don’t do so ;)
The way out could be increasing initial amount of picks. However this will require new balance of races (if you increase positive and leave negative as before). But I’m very skeptic if you could achieve such balance.
OK, lets stop discussing this issue. If you think you can find better balance, go ahead. And we can estimate your suggestions. So far they don’t look good.

Astax
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Postby Astax » Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:27 pm

yes if you made repulsive -2 then a lot of people might pick -20 attack. Chances are both sides will take this pick, so it will be a wash when fighting the opponents who have -20, because there will be no change to initiative.

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Ai_Mania
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Postby Ai_Mania » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:13 am

I can finally see your point, overlord2. Balance of races has to be redefined for each total ammount of points available. Cutting repulsive, there would be less effective points available. Also that the -10 is probably set in stone. The artificial cost for repulsive helps you.

I still think you should attempt to make picks's costs reflect their value. To make you feel any better, I played a uni-tol-rich race last evening. Those races DON't NEED the initial research, they act like they already had robo miners+atmospere renewer and colonize crazy from the start. Also using the housing on colonies. So I agree Uni=8 points, Dem=5.

Another fault of your way of thinking is that with it, you end up playing uni-tol forever, because of the way you arrange pick costs over their values.

A quick assignemnt of values, average of uni case + dem case, using this average allows for intelligent race design (fitting picks together more imaginatively):

population:
-8 -4 -> -6
+4 +2 -> +3
+6 +3 -> +5
Note that here you gave artificial values (too low) for positive growth costs, in the line of thinking that you need your uni+tol and everything else has to be small enough to fit in (the first column is for uni races)

farming:
-4 -5 -> -4
+3 +4 -> +4
+4 +5 -> +5

industry:
-8 -4 -> -6
+4 +3 -> +3
+7 +5 -> +6
Again, you exaggerated with -10 for penalty, only meant with extreme judgement for uni races. This kind of thinking prohibits intelligent race design.

science:
-6 -8 -> -7
+3 +3 -> +3
+5 +5 -> +5
This time you overdid it for the demos with -8 for the penalty

money: I never picked negative (too horrible) and can't really judge this one. I assume it is worse for demos because they don't have as much industry, despite their tax bonus.

ship defense:
-3
+2
+5
I'm telling you, low defense gets you hit. You always played low defense, this time YOU don't know :)

ship attack:
-3
+2
+5

For both attack and defense extreme values are increased by one point because it could distance your performance too much.

Ground combat:
-1
+1
+2
I think you need to be fair and give -1, not -2, for the penalty. It reflects reality much more than vanilla, ground combat isn't that important.

Spying:
-3
+2
+5
I have to say, in multiplayer where everyone researches valid techs, spying is pretty important. You should give it more, like I did.

governemts:
feudal: -8
dictatorship: 0
democracy: 5
unification: 8

low-g: -8 -4 -> -6
high g: +3 +2 -> +3
aquatic: +5 +3 -> +4
subterranean: +5 +4 -> +5

large home world: +1 +2 -> +1

rich home:+2
poor: -2
artifacts: 3

cybernetic: 3 (not 2)
lithovore: 8 (not 10)

repulsive: -2 for multi -6 for single
charismatic: +1 for multi +2 for single

uncreative: -10 (totally agree, luck is a *****)
creative: 7

tolerant: 10 (maybe a little less? 9 or 8 is worth for demo)

fantastic traders: 1 or 2 depending on warlord

telepathic: spy + assimilation : 4 or 5

lucky : 0, not 1 (it just isn't lucky enought; really +0.5 )

omniscient: 3 for multiplayer, 2 for single

stealthy: 2 or 3, depends - if you risk opponent using omniscient then worthless

trans dimensional: don't know, I assume it gives good speed in combat => initiative; this plus fast map movement -> 3 or 4

warlord : half attack+defense :+2 ; huge control: +1 for uni, +2 for demo; also depends on traders to compensate; => +3 or +4


Hehe, a lot of writing probably for nothing :)
"Humanity is revealed in the games you play and how you play."

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:44 am

I can finally see your point, overlord2. Balance of races has to be redefined for each total ammount of points available. Cutting repulsive, there would be less effective points available. Also that the -10 is probably set in stone. The artificial cost for repulsive helps you.
It not only helps, but allows not to play crappy races, with less amount of points available. If you increase amount of points available, you'll stumble upon the problem of balancing races, since there are compound races like demo or uni, which you won't be able to balance out right. Either of them will be overpowered or suck. However if you manage to balance them right then dict will become overpowered.
I still think you should attempt to make picks's costs reflect their value.
I'm quite ok with the costs now. The picks which suffer at the moment are deep negatives, but I don't care about this, since it's not my purpose to force people play those negatives. :roll: Just imagine situation you have no negatives at all, only positives :D
Another fault of your way of thinking is that with it, you end up playing uni-tol forever, because of the way you arrange pick costs over their values.
Unitol rhw isn't winning race. There are many other races, which are at least not worse or even better. It's strong, but depends on the start though. In VDCREG it has better odds due to unguarded ultrariches.

Astax
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Postby Astax » Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:03 am

Yes UniTolRhw is nothing compared to UniTol+1 food for example.

UniTolRhw in a rich start only gives you few more turns heads up than UniTol by itself. Having 2 rich planets in same systems i only marginally better in late game than having just 1. And in early game it is nothing for a tol race.

It is OK race, but not Overpowering. UniTol+ Food on the other hand is overpowering when compared to other available races.

Also thinking about possibility of making RHW 1 point. What you think about that? I'm just throwing this around. It might lead to RHW + LHW into RHW + 50% growth... That's my only fear. But maybe you got different concerns.

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:17 am

Also thinking about possibility of making RHW 1 point. What you think about that? I'm just throwing this around. It might lead to RHW + LHW into RHW + 50% growth... That's my only fear. But maybe you got different concerns.
rhw for 1 point will allow many new races and affect current balance significantly.
But I can say with confidence, some overpowered races will certainly emerge. E.g.: aqua demo creative +50 pop rhw.


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