"Very Difficult Choice" Mod, irc channel: irc.quakenet.org/vdc

Information, How-to's, and discussion about mod'ing Master of Orion II.
Lilltiger
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Postby Lilltiger » Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:58 am

Telepathic from the beginning or mutated? If mutated it means game went long enough that other player could tech mutation too to get that omni counter...
After all if stealth means nothing it becomes useless, doesn't it?
Btw, outposts are disclosed as well, so telepathic doen't look panacea for the stealth field.


Well this would enforce you to select omni as the mutation pick, and the one selecting telepatic would then probly be screwed.

And still bombing planets is enought..

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:11 am

Lilltiger wrote:Yes to get JumpGate by t120 isent hard, the reason to lower the cost to tech it was to make population migration less painfull erly in the game cos you wouldent have any good engines.

Jumpgate doesn't allow population to travel faster, only military ships :P

Lilltiger wrote:And if you would focus on engine tech when reserching hunting it then you would severly cripple your defensive power and offencive power meaning that your opponent could split up his fleet to defend and then retaliate and overrun you.
Sure in late game the situation will araise again, but by that time the game would probly already be over or you would have several fleets.

Possibly, however didn't you think game could become enormously defensive?

Lilltiger wrote:About that outpost argument, it's not viable as I would move my whole fleet together with the outposts and as I would move between the planets (systems?)in 1turn you still wont know wich planet i will build my tripple outpost on and would have to guess wich brings us to the same issue again.

Your sentence is not clear...If I see many outpost flying in certain direction, this would be a clear sign that you are planning an invasion. I will have scouts in all systems you can arrive to and you inevitably hit my scouts, this way I see your fleet.
Lilltiger wrote:Have anyone eavent tried to see the result of this in game, bump up the engine teches 4steps or so in the tree?

No, but I have an idea for engines, thanks to our discussion :)
Lilltiger wrote:Imo the warp iredicator does the wrong thing to address this issue, as it only limits the fligt to your planets and not between all planets. I favor the engine /jump gate solution that slow downs your travel to all but your own planets.

On the contrary, warp interdictors is uber defensive tech meant exactly for this purpose. It can be countered partly only by hyperspace communications used together with thorium fuel cells.
Last edited by Overlord2 on Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:25 am, edited 7 times in total.

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:14 am

Lilltiger wrote:Well this would enforce you to select omni as the mutation pick, and the one selecting telepatic would then probly be screwed.

Telepath is a good pick independently.

Lilltiger wrote:And still bombing planets is enough..

Hehe, sometimes not... :wink:

Valprax
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Postby Valprax » Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:59 pm

i like the jump game idea but it might become a prerequist for every1

Astax
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Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:19 pm

Postby Astax » Sun May 03, 2009 2:26 am

I noticed there are no Asteroid belts and no Gas Giants, is this intentional? Why have planet construction tech at all?

Overall I am liking this mod. But few things remain problem, for one thing Feudalism is still horrible. Repulsive is still the way to go, there is no good way to get -6 picks that would make it better choice over repulsive.

I would like to know if at all possible to change feudalism around so it is less terrible and remains an option. Or is it hard coded? Maybe if not possible to change the feudalism, can you move the advanced form of the government somewhere lower int he tech tree? Or would that mean you had to move all the advance government techs down as well.

To me only way to fix repulsive is to make it -4 picks, and make other negative picks also -4. That way it could be choice between say -10 spying or repulsive. A choice that one could see themselves making.

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Sun May 03, 2009 6:58 am

Astax wrote:I noticed there are no Asteroid belts and no Gas Giants, is this intentional? Why have planet construction tech at all?

This is consequence of the goodmap. In VDCREG planet construction works ok.
Astax wrote:Overall I am liking this mod. But few things remain problem, for one thing Feudalism is still horrible. Repulsive is still the way to go, there is no good way to get -6 picks that would make it better choice over repulsive.

I have ideas for improving feudalism, but it needs testing.
As for repulsive, check the above posts about it. Btw, in VDC 19 you can take - ship attack instead of repulsive, but that will require you get warlord as well to compensate attack minus.

Astax wrote:I would like to know if at all possible to change feudalism around so it is less terrible and remains an option. Or is it hard coded? Maybe if not possible to change the feudalism, can you move the advanced form of the government somewhere lower int he tech tree? Or would that mean you had to move all the advance government techs down as well.

Yes, it is hardcoded and it is not possible to change it atm. And yes, 'Advanced government' advancement relates to all. You can't move it for feudalism separately.

Astax
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Postby Astax » Sun May 03, 2009 11:33 am

I was thinking if you gave feudalism -12 or more picks, would it be possible to get over the 20 pick limit using it? Or probably not. I'm thinking the game would not let you pick it then :/

Lilltiger
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Food Replicator

Postby Lilltiger » Sun May 03, 2009 11:56 am

In VDC you get the choice between Biospheres and Food Replicators at 80RP. Most people just take Biospheres thinking that Food Replicators are useless but tht isent true cos of an bug with the food replicators that actually makes the choise intesting.

When you build Food Replicators on a planet and moves all populations except 1 or 2 to reserch the bug comes into play. Now the Food Rep. produces alot more food then it should. 2 workers can feed about 20 reserchers this way.

Tests indicate that when exploiting this bug you can free up between 2 to 5 farmers (depending on the buildings on the f. rep. world and the effectivness of your farmers) to do reserch.

So when utlized correctly you can get a boost in reserch when you need it. But all and any production on that world will be lost, so you have to use it strategicly and then sell it when you want to produce stuff (or do farming on that same planet). And as the planet dosent import much/non food when using the f. rep. you also free up some frigs.

I and Irakly tested the exploition of this bug a little and came to the conclusion that it makes the f. rep. usable and quite comparable with the biosphere. He will make it a little bit more expensive to build but it will still be a cheap building.

Hopefully people will start to use it as an valid option to the biospheres and find new strategies to play the game.

Astax
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Postby Astax » Sun May 03, 2009 1:20 pm

Did you look at your income when doing this? Food replicators are terrible for anyone but tolerant races. Non-tol races need to store up production most of the time. Using replicators eats away at this production.

Lilltiger
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Postby Lilltiger » Sun May 03, 2009 1:42 pm

The income isent an issue, as an reserch planet dosent generate income any way. But yes you wont store up production wich is one of the reasons to why this bug isent serius an isted could be used to enhance gameplay.

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Tue May 05, 2009 10:31 am

Did you look at your income when doing this? Food replicators are terrible for anyone but tolerant races. Non-tol races need to store up production most of the time. Using replicators eats away at this production.

Food replicators don't affect income, only production. But with a view to that you don't get biosphere, which can allow more pop, you can say it affects potential income...And yes, production storage is important, so whether food replicators can be used effectively is a moot question. But Lilltiger was right that on scientific planets food rep. can be used to boost research. Since it allows negative prod you don't need to have many workers to maintain it.

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Tue May 05, 2009 10:45 am

Astax wrote:I was thinking if you gave feudalism -12 or more picks, would it be possible to get over the 20 pick limit using it? Or probably not. I'm thinking the game would not let you pick it then :/

Well, this could be possible, if someone found offset of the max negative value (-10) in the .exe file. Or alternatively someone could warn he will use feudal government and launch cmd with picks=12....he he, seems like good solution?
I think feudal is worth -3 additional picks, total -13.

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rewster1
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Postby rewster1 » Tue May 05, 2009 12:17 pm

Are you sure about the income with food reps? I could swear it was charging me a BC per food generated. That was specifically why I tried it with the demo cyber combo, so the bonuses would cover the cost (each person eats half a food, but generates an extra half BC).
The weird thing is, didn't the original description in the manual have it as costing 10BC maintenance? Now it seems to be 1BC plus 1 per food.

Regarding feudal... well, if you take it with creative, you can cancel the research penalty with only 650 and 900 RP level morale techs. Or even without creative, but you'd give up a lot. Still, dict can achieve a 50% res bonus the same way. I'd say the way to make feudal work is to make repulsive's value -2, to correspond to charismatic being +1 (old values -6 and +3). Yes, it would change how "it's always been done", but with the -6 for ship attack and -8 for low G there are alternatives, and you can't really argue that repulsive causes you comparable pain to either of those picks. It's almost harmless, since you can't really plan on getting good leaders even with charismatic, and depending on luck isn't really a viable strategy. I think it would force everyone to really consider their negative picks, instead of "the standard negatives" that are easily offset by simple tech or are almost painless anyway.

Astax
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Postby Astax » Tue May 05, 2009 12:43 pm

I would say -13 would be good, it would give you a bonus of Artifact HW. That would keep you in the game tech wise till you got enough tech to cancel it out. Though you would probably need a rich or better planet in your starting system to move production there after first colony base :)

Lilltiger
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Postby Lilltiger » Tue May 05, 2009 4:58 pm

It does seem to affect the income some, about 0.3BC/pop when having hydro farm on the planet and about 0.4BC/pop without it.


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