"Very Difficult Choice" Mod, irc channel: irc.quakenet.org/vdc

Information, How-to's, and discussion about mod'ing Master of Orion II.
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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Thu May 07, 2009 3:50 pm

2c'g
As usual you never understand what I say :P
Under lesser evil I meant the optimum negative picks combination given the costs of the race picks. Sometimes there can be several optimal sets, but the core reamains unchanged. e.g. repulsive in original moo.
Addition: of course tech tree has an impact on negatives selection too. But once the tech tree is known the choice becomes obvious...
Last edited by Overlord2 on Thu May 07, 2009 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

RassaR
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Postby RassaR » Thu May 07, 2009 3:57 pm

Ok, I can tell you which races will rock under your setting if you base on VDC tech tree. No other races will get close to the ones I point.

1) demo sub lith, 2) demo lith +2 research, 3)aqua, demo cash +1, +50 pop, 4) dict, lith, sub, +50 pop rhw. The negatives will be the following: lowG, repulsive, poor hw, -ship defense for demo, or lowG, repulsive, -spy for dict.
The disbalance is on the surface:
uni in great trouble, dict prod races dead, feudal - dead as it was, creative dead (at 7 points it was in trouble).

Diagnosis: with lowG forced negative playable are only tech races.
maybe you are right I'm not an experienced player but poor hw delay first colony by at least 2-4 turns, researching gravity generator will take another 10-30 turns (depends when you start your research) and i dont think weapons subtree is the best choice for tech races in early stage After all you still need basic techs (super+clone) + robo or recylotron + zortium before t100-110 and usualy you want to be defensive as long as it takes to outtech other players so you would like to research force field techs instead of weapons techs (you dont need command points, you would have to build you fleet without strong production. Phasors are too expensive so you stuck with fusion beams)

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Thu May 07, 2009 4:02 pm

OMG Rassar, you don't need to go that far, other than I pointed races will be severely out-teched, out-popped and eventually out-produced. The game will be finished on contact.

c'g~
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For the record

Postby c'g~ » Thu May 07, 2009 6:02 pm

2c'g
As usual you never understand what I say :P
Under lesser evil I meant the optimum negative picks combination given the costs of the race picks. Sometimes there can be several optimal sets, but the core reamains unchanged. e.g. repulsive in original moo.
Addition: of course tech tree has an impact on negatives selection too. But once the tech tree is known the choice becomes obvious...
For the record: I did understand what you mean there (moreover I knew it beforehand, because we already had discussion about this).

And I don’t think that you should use “as usual” in your sentences about my supposedly poor understanding of the subject. Especially, when you apparently didn’t understand what I mean earlier. If you want further clarifying of the matter: please CAREFULLY reread what I wrote earlier in my previous post.

To the topic: I’m not arguing with you directly. I have pointed out for everyone else that there isn’t only one VALID view of mentioned problem/problems. And as I said: if Race picks System is supported by structure of Tech Tree, then there isn’t any “lesser evil” or there are several distinguishable cases of “lesser evils” at worst.

Btw, that’s really great that so many people interested in VDC and still play MoO2. GJ!

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Thu May 07, 2009 9:11 pm

if Race picks System is supported by structure of Tech Tree, then there isn’t any “lesser evil”
You want to say any set of negative picks will have equal importance/consequence if "race picks are supported by tech tree structure"?

Astax
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Postby Astax » Thu May 07, 2009 10:28 pm

We won't get it perfect since there are some things we can't change. But we'll get it pretty good or good enough until one of us makes our own game :)

zitro
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Postby zitro » Wed May 20, 2009 9:14 am

This appears to be an excellent and very balanced mod!

Is it just me, or are ships damaging a bit too much here? I assume that this is designed for online playing, where ships will take advantage of heavy armor/lighting field/etc. When I played in 'hard setting', ships with autofire phasors, gauss cannons, hyperx thing, and a good computer did a ton of damage.

It feels like ships tend to do more havoc as the time goes on (despite other ships getting good armor).

I'll know how it works out in 'impossible' setting. I researched and stole a ton of stuff from a creative opponent and I attacked a planet. I noticed a good armor plus the best planet shield made it VERY difficult, so I'll see how ship vs ship battles go.

What surprised me was how easily antares can wreck my ships now, they do less damage but damage the insides of the ship. I have to let the planet do the work (as long as the ships don't have those green ring attacks that destroy missiles)

Astax
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Postby Astax » Wed May 20, 2009 11:36 am

zitro that's a ridiculous level of tech. You should have counter to that which would be greater than Zortium armor and internal Nullifier with something like c7 shields :)

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Wed May 20, 2009 11:56 am

This appears to be an excellent and very balanced mod!
thanks for high appraisal.
Is it just me, or are ships damaging a bit too much here?
Yes, many weapons damage has been increased. And they can do ton of damage to the ships without any defense...Ships' defense is key point here.
What surprised me was how easily antares can wreck my ships now, they do less damage but damage the insides of the ship.
Partical beam was enhanced - it works both as Ion cannon and shield piercing phasor. The only way you can defend against its effects is to get hard shields. Or alternatively you could get very high beam defense so that they miss completely...
I constructed this mod with a view to MP games. So I didn't take into account antares actually.

zitro
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Postby zitro » Wed May 20, 2009 11:24 pm

Picks:

_+1 farming, + production, +1 money appear to be quite unattractive choices, especially if you compare it with Aquatic (farming), production (vs population/subterranean/unification?), money (vs democracy). As you are likely to have more experience playing the game (and this mod) than I, I wanna know what I'm missing in the logic or a combo I don't have in mind.

_-50% pop growth seems to deserve a -10 rating while -1 production maybe -8 rating. Halving pop growth could bring awful developing problems until you bring the cloning center (which I don't find that useful without the negative, I prefer automated factory followed by housing). -1 production isn't too bad due to early pollution and if you play with dictatorship.

I'll tell you my pics in my hard game and the current 'impossible' game:
_Hard: +50% growth, oceanic, subterranean, high-G,+20 spying, lucky, F traders. Uncreative. It was a nice idea as I grew quickly then built 50+ spies and stole lots of tech.
_Impossible: +50% growth, oceanic, subterranean, high-G, +20 spying, F-traders, Large HW, -ground combat, -1 research. I should have replaced the negatives with -1 production, but it's working out. Stealing from a creative race is giving me awesome stuff and I have prepared that kind of 'ridiculous' techs that I pointed out in my previous post.

What does biomorphic fungi do? I thought all planets would get +1 food, but it didn't happen. It only annoyed me by making farmers in unhabitable conditions. I chose Neutral scanner in the 2nd game: it's awesome.

I have how the game changes with this mod. I didn't expect (in impossible) to get the planet flux shield and good armor (800hp) making missiles/lasers useless and bombers mediocre. It brings a cool new idea.
I also did not expect my opponent doing considerable damage with the attack that makes you spin, early in the game. ouch, it's frustrating when i face the wrong way and now that weapon finally seems good (pulsar and others got improved too)

I feel battlestations could use a bit of improvement on the laser department. Starfortresses might use an hp increase, they just feel like a stationary 'titan' with tons of nearly useless pd weapons.

making it a choice to research the 'attack antares' gate is a bit cruel. It could be an entry-tech instead like scout lab for example.

But these are minor observations. I'm very impressed how you managed to make the choices very difficult on research, building ships, among other decisions. While early-game still forces me to research pulson missiles/missile base like before, there are other options like bombers or some lasers, it's good that the first computer is +50 because early lasers were pretty useless in the original game. I'm also surprised how you managed to make the choices difficult with a research tree that makes even more sense than 'difficult choice' mod. This is what made me not enjoy Expa, it was just too different and a harder learning curve do to everything being in unusual places.

While im a tad busy right now and will play less, I'll update you on other observations, compliments and constructive [hopefully] criticism/questions.

But so far, it reminds me of the fantastic master of magic balance mod that I found early this year. (which made the game more challenging, interesting, and surprisingly balanced)

c'g~
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Without a doubt

Postby c'g~ » Thu May 21, 2009 6:23 am

Hi, zitro.
This is what made me not enjoy Expa, it was just too different and a harder learning curve do to everything being in unusual places.
Without a doubt, EXPa IS different mod, no even more: it’s different game. And yes: it’s challenging. And of course you won’t feel the fun till you learn the game, like it was with original MoO/MoO2 btw.
I'm very impressed how you managed to make the choices very difficult on research...
Could you please provide more particular examples of VDC Tech fields that represent decent choice in your opinion? It would be helpful.
But so far, it reminds me of the fantastic master of magic balance mod that I found early this year. (which made the game more challenging, interesting, and surprisingly balanced)
I'm really like to try this magically balanced mod: could you share the link?
Last edited by c'g~ on Thu May 21, 2009 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Thu May 21, 2009 6:38 am

Picks:

_+1 farming, + production, +1 money appear to be quite unattractive choices, especially if you compare it with Aquatic (farming), production (vs population/subterranean/unification?), money (vs democracy). As you are likely to have more experience playing the game (and this mod) than I, I wanna know what I'm missing in the logic or a combo I don't have in mind.
- food + 1 is for 3 picks. When it was 2 picks unitol food race was overpowered. Besides at 3 points food can be still useful combined with subterran pick.
- Production is the most important part of the game. The cost of production picks is optimized not to allow uber prod races though.
- +1 BC at 7 points. Well, +1 BC has more considerable impact than +0.5 BC, since it works cumulative with buildings like space port and planetary stock exchange. On the other hand 7 points may seem expensive. However, at 6 points there can be constructed one demo race, which has signs of overpower, namely: demo, aqua, +1 BC, +50 pop, rich hw. Needs more testing.
_-50% pop growth seems to deserve a -10 rating while -1 production maybe -8 rating. Halving pop growth could bring awful developing problems until you bring the cloning center (which I don't find that useful without the negative, I prefer automated factory followed by housing). -1 production isn't too bad due to early pollution and if you play with dictatorship.
-50 pop could be taken by rush races. At 10 points it is extremely attractive.
Production: if you take - prod you never become +prod, it is mutually exclusive. Good production allows you to settle more systems/planets early and hence grow more population, which is the "ultimate arbiter of victory in MOO". Even uncreative is better than - prod.
I'll tell you my pics in my hard game and the current 'impossible' game:
_Hard: +50% growth, oceanic, subterranean, high-G,+20 spying, lucky, F traders. Uncreative. It was a nice idea as I grew quickly then built 50+ spies and stole lots of tech.
_Impossible: +50% growth, oceanic, subterranean, high-G, +20 spying, F-traders, Large HW, -ground combat, -1 research. I should have replaced the negatives with -1 production, but it's working out. Stealing from a creative race is giving me awesome stuff and I have prepared that kind of 'ridiculous' techs that I pointed out in my previous post.
Spying alone is good, but in MP game you need to build fleet and expand fast. Stolen techs won't help you much in this aspect.
What does biomorphic fungi do? I thought all planets would get +1 food, but it didn't happen. It only annoyed me by making farmers in unhabitable conditions. I chose Neutral scanner in the 2nd game: it's awesome.
Yeah, this tech is practically useless. It only allows to farm on rocks, radiated and toxic planets. It could be used to certain benefit by uni +2 food race though.
I feel battlestations could use a bit of improvement on the laser department. Starfortresses might use an hp increase, they just feel like a stationary 'titan' with tons of nearly useless pd weapons.
It would be good if you could refit starbases yourself, but it's not possible now.
I've heard that Siron was working on it to make it possible, but don't know if he achieved any positive results.
Btw, Star Fortress has insane HP in VDC, even more than Doomstar and costs only 1600. Don't know why people complain about Star Fortress :P
making it a choice to research the 'attack antares' gate is a bit cruel. It could be an entry-tech instead like scout lab for example.
Ye, I didn't think of it, I'll try to fix it in the next update. There is just one place left vacant for "entry techs".
But these are minor observations. I'm very impressed how you managed to make the choices very difficult on research, building ships, among other decisions. While early-game still forces me to research pulson missiles/missile base like before, there are other options like bombers or some lasers, it's good that the first computer is +50 because early lasers were pretty useless in the original game. I'm also surprised how you managed to make the choices difficult with a research tree that makes even more sense than 'difficult choice' mod. This is what made me not enjoy Expa, it was just too different and a harder learning curve do to everything being in unusual places.

While im a tad busy right now and will play less, I'll update you on other observations, compliments and constructive [hopefully] criticism/questions.

But so far, it reminds me of the fantastic master of magic balance mod that I found early this year. (which made the game more challenging, interesting, and surprisingly balanced)
Thanks for positive feedback.
Last edited by Overlord2 on Thu May 21, 2009 10:05 am, edited 4 times in total.

Valprax
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Postby Valprax » Thu May 21, 2009 6:50 am

zitro >

the race u mentioned is quit slow tho
I prefer these with the following averages

best uni 150pop at turn 100 /+- 850rp |8 planet

uni prod2 sub

uni prod1 sub rhw +50%growth

best demo 135pop at turn 100 /+- 850rp |7 planet

Demo, Sub,+100%growth,Cyber,+0.5bc

best creative 115pop at turn 100 /+- 850rp |4 planet

Creative, +0.5bc, +100% growth, sub,

best dictatorship

Sub,lith,+100% 150pop at turn 100 /+- 1000rp |9planet

Cyber,tol,rhw,+2prod, 150pop at turn 100 /+- 650rp |9planet

Now theres more ofc just these are prefered by me

zitro
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Postby zitro » Thu May 21, 2009 1:41 pm

- food + 1 is for 3 picks. When it was 2 picks unitol food race was overpowered. Besides at 3 points food can be still useful combined with subterran pick.
- Production is the most important part of the game. The cost of production picks is optimized not to allow uber prod races though.
- +1 BC at 7 points. Well, +1 BC has more considerable impact than +0.5 BC, since it works cumulative with buildings like space port and planetary stock exchange. On the other hand 7 points may seem expensive. However, at 6 points there can be constructed one demo race, which has signs of overpower, namely: demo, aqua, +1 BC, +50 pop, rich hw. Needs more testing.
_I see, I didn't think of those ideas for the food pick. At least it's 3 (wasn't it 4 in regular moo2?)
_I suppose +1 production combined with tolerant, subterranean and +growth could be killer, or +2 production with Unification and other things could be good. So many things to test!
_Maybe I'm overlooking the usefulness of BC, after all, it saves you in emergencies, increases growth (buying automated factories in colonized planets), and helps you maintain bigger fleets. I use F. Traders for money, but Democracy+1bc could be an interesting choice without requiring trade goods.
-50 pop could be taken by rush races. At 10 points it is extremely attractive.
Production: if you take - prod you never become +prod, it is mutually exclusive. Good production allows you to settle more systems/planets early and hence grow more population, which is the "ultimate arbiter of victory in MOO". Even uncreative is better than - prod.
_rush races? how does rushing (I heard that term in starcraft) work in moo2, considering you still need growth in the first planets to be strong early in the game? (mmm, maybe ignore this ques if it's too long to answer)
_I probably felt the early pollution problems and help with automated factories could help out, but I realized the problems in poor/ultra poor planets, especially if combined with low/high G.
Spying alone is good, but in MP game you need to build fleet and expand fast. Stolen techs won't help you much in this aspect.
Yes, I notice that things like creative or spying are most useful later in the game. I'm not a big fan of creative tho, as it makes colony management tedious.
It would be good if you could refit starbases yourself, but it's not possible now.
I've heard that Siron was working on it to make it possible, but don't know if he achieved any positive results.
Btw, Star Fortress has insane HP in VDC, even more than Doomstar and costs only 1600. Don't know why people complain about Star Fortress :P

_I shouldn't have asked this when I didn't research star fortress yet ;) Star Fortress costs 1600 now and has more hp than a doomstar? forget what I said, that's awesome.

uni prod1 sub rhw +50%growth
This seems excellent, the only issue is pollution, but I assume you'd rush to pollution processor or atmospheric renewal. what negatives?
Demo, Sub,+100%growth,Cyber,+0.5bc
. Quite creative, I haven't thought of that, but what negatives?
Sub,lith,+100%

This is rather strange, I'm surprised it worked out. I wonder if replacing lith with tolerant is more effective.

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Fri May 22, 2009 8:29 am

_rush races? how does rushing (I heard that term in starcraft) work in moo2, considering you still need growth in the first planets to be strong early in the game? (mmm, maybe ignore this ques if it's too long to answer)
_I probably felt the early pollution problems and help with automated factories could help out, but I realized the problems in poor/ultra poor planets, especially if combined with low/high G.
Races constructed with aim to attack early, the so-called blitz races. E.g. Unification, telepathic, transdimensional, large homeworld, rich homeworld. You colonize only your first cs (given at the beginning), not forgetting to build colony bases everywhere :wink:, research all base techs, build a battleship or a couple of cruisers and rush for early attack, that is before turn 80~90. The earlier you attack, the better.
Generally blitz is considered as attacking on 50s or 60s with crappy techs. You start building your warship immediately, w/o researching anything. But in VDC it is risky...Haven't tried though :P The rest is called rush.


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