50% penalty proved to be too high for competetive MP games, consequently it was decreased.
If you are interested in single player games you may adjust the penalty for your purposes by means of OCL_Improved editor.
"Very Difficult Choice" Mod, irc channel: irc.quakenet.org/vdc
-
MrDeath666
- Posts:5
- Joined:Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:51 am
I've tried many times to understand the work of this program, but I have not succeeded.OCL_Improved editor.
Okay, one more thing:
Another thing that I do not like, it's black hole generator.It is too bulky (450). It is much more advantageous to install a pack of phasor or plasma.
Solving the problem - reducing the weight to 250-350.
just use the GUI - it's very user friendly.I've tried many times to understand the work of this program, but I have not succeeded.OCL_Improved editor.
Actually it's only 400 atm, forgot to correct the description. The thing is that it is bugged and allows abuse - you can raid immediately after it was applied - kind of tractor beams for the late game. So I had to take this into account when balancing it's 'weight'. Now only Titans and Doomstar can get it. I believe allowing it for Battleships or lower class ships will make it OP.Okay, one more thing:
Another thing that I do not like, it's black hole generator.It is too bulky (450). It is much more advantageous to install a pack of phasor or plasma.
Solving the problem - reducing the weight to 250-350.
-
MrDeath666
- Posts:5
- Joined:Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:51 am
Titans are difficult to produce because they are costly. Consequently you won't have many titans. But you can produce much more Battleships, because they are comparatively cheap. Hence you can have much more raiders. Each raider can effectively blow up an enemy ship. With initiative and subspace teleporter can do so before the enemy can even move. If you have many raiders you can easily win the battle no matter the weapons opponent got, unless of course he has much higher ground combat bonus. This situation makes BHG overpowered.
It seems that even thou you can only have one special flag per system, each planet can also be flagged with a special. Right now I'm working with custom build of mapgen I threw together to test this out. I just did a gem deposit in starting system for fantastic traders, but without the system flag for gem deposits (Which I think is only needed to generate the event window when system is explored).
I then tested putting three specials in start system. One will was Arti planet for uncreative, other was Natives for charismatic. and I kept the gem deposit for fantastic traders. Went off without a hitch, so its definitely possible. This opens up all kinds of possibilities. Though my test build of mapgen is 64 bit atm, I have to figure out how to make it compile as 32 bit dos, but that's trivial.
Also as far as making a switch that removes natives within x parsec of starting system, it is possible but involves some funky math. I hate assembly as much as the next guy, and the way the game stores x/y coordinates of the systems just gives me a flashback. Low bit first, followed by high bit is arse backwards to me.
Anyway I think the range would have to be tested because the value will depend on map size. For example: on small map a distance of 10 might represent 2 parsecs, while on huge it could be 8... etc.
I then tested putting three specials in start system. One will was Arti planet for uncreative, other was Natives for charismatic. and I kept the gem deposit for fantastic traders. Went off without a hitch, so its definitely possible. This opens up all kinds of possibilities. Though my test build of mapgen is 64 bit atm, I have to figure out how to make it compile as 32 bit dos, but that's trivial.
Also as far as making a switch that removes natives within x parsec of starting system, it is possible but involves some funky math. I hate assembly as much as the next guy, and the way the game stores x/y coordinates of the systems just gives me a flashback. Low bit first, followed by high bit is arse backwards to me.
Anyway I think the range would have to be tested because the value will depend on map size. For example: on small map a distance of 10 might represent 2 parsecs, while on huge it could be 8... etc.
Maybe it is possible to put extra specials manually in the same system. I don't have any ideas at the moment how to make use of it. If you have, you may suggest. Now I'm more concerned about artis or natives within 6 parsec from hw.
It needs special calculations, which makes it rather difficult. Tf8 was working on it, not sure how far he's gone with it. You may contact him for the update.
It needs special calculations, which makes it rather difficult. Tf8 was working on it, not sure how far he's gone with it. You may contact him for the update.
Cool. I have been messing around with that. For the longest time I had no idea why my program was not working as it should... then it came to me... I copied and pasted a line of code and forgot to change x to y lol. Anyway this is the state of what I'm up to.
I noted small anomalies when I decided to shift the map around a bit. I'll have to play with it more but for some reason the fleets in bottom right star only show up in #2 slot instead of #1.... it's odd.
On large map the distance between the diagonal stars in the grid is 5 parsecs, and in terms of units it's 50*sqrt(2) so about 141. While distance between adjacent stars is 4 parsecs, and 100 units. So that's like 25 units per parsec.
I noted small anomalies when I decided to shift the map around a bit. I'll have to play with it more but for some reason the fleets in bottom right star only show up in #2 slot instead of #1.... it's odd.
On large map the distance between the diagonal stars in the grid is 5 parsecs, and in terms of units it's 50*sqrt(2) so about 141. While distance between adjacent stars is 4 parsecs, and 100 units. So that's like 25 units per parsec.
Let me first say that I loved this mod. A humble "thank you" for your efforts.
Now to the point: I was unable to find data on the changed buildings (i.e. Marine Barracks cost down to 20 etc.). I thought this would be included in the .xls file but obviously it is not.
Playing MOO2 for the first time in 5-6 years and it feels great, even better with VDC. Building data will only enhance this.
Edit: p.s: I was wondering about the free academy given @ every homeworld. What was the reasoning behind that?
p.p.s.: Hopefully these questions have not been answered somewhere before. I was unable to find anything.
Now to the point: I was unable to find data on the changed buildings (i.e. Marine Barracks cost down to 20 etc.). I thought this would be included in the .xls file but obviously it is not.
Playing MOO2 for the first time in 5-6 years and it feels great, even better with VDC. Building data will only enhance this.
Edit: p.s: I was wondering about the free academy given @ every homeworld. What was the reasoning behind that?
p.p.s.: Hopefully these questions have not been answered somewhere before. I was unable to find anything.
Thanks for high appraisal of the mod.
I will add info about the buildings in the next update.
About Space Academy. I needed an extra tech field for making stellar converter a singleton. Since the number of tech fields are limited I had to take it from the space academy, which doesn't need it so much, hence became a known tech.
I will add info about the buildings in the next update.
About Space Academy. I needed an extra tech field for making stellar converter a singleton. Since the number of tech fields are limited I had to take it from the space academy, which doesn't need it so much, hence became a known tech.
My question regarded the free Space Academy building at the homeworld. I see no use for it in the beginning of the game (thus I always sell it right away).About Space Academy. I needed an extra tech field for making stellar converter a singleton. Since the number of tech fields are limited I had to take it from the space academy, which doesn't need it so much, hence became a known tech.
I am a long time lurker and decided to post here for the first time now.
I have read this topic many times and have downloaded and played the very difficult choice mod. And overall I like it a lot. It is very well done.
I do have a few points I want to say.
1. Having warpgate and the stellar con on separate tiers, well I understand your reasoning with this cause you do need it if a game goes long with a creative race. Mind you if you let games go that long with creative races you're not doing it right. But this is a very difficult choice mod. And this is a very difficult choice. Honestly I'm ok how you do it cause too difficult a choice could be potentially game breaking.
2. Creative and Uncreative. I always thought creative was a little too good. But just upping it's pick cost didn't feel like a good idea to me. And the opposite for uncreative, I feel that is really harsh. No real reason for any one to pick it. I'm not sure if you can do this, cause you're not really recoding same specifics.
I thought the 2 always should have been like this:
Creative - cost say 3 picks. Works as standard but also every research tech cost is 30%-50% more. Which makes sense. You learn more tech per tier, so should take more RP's to learn it all. And only 3 picks cause of the increase RP's cost.
Uncreative - cost say minus 2 or minus 3 picks. Works as standard but also every research tech cost is say 25% less. Cause you can't choose your tech ever this uncreative, the less RP's cost per tech would actually make this uncreative actually a viable choice in some builds. Faster tech but you don't know which tech you'll get. Sure research blitzing with this could be a little OP if you get lucky with the tech. But on the other hand something like uncreative + feudal (if not bugged) + warlord + more money or more production or something could be a very interesting build.
That's all I can think of at the moment. And well done on a great job on your VDC mod.
I have read this topic many times and have downloaded and played the very difficult choice mod. And overall I like it a lot. It is very well done.
I do have a few points I want to say.
1. Having warpgate and the stellar con on separate tiers, well I understand your reasoning with this cause you do need it if a game goes long with a creative race. Mind you if you let games go that long with creative races you're not doing it right. But this is a very difficult choice mod. And this is a very difficult choice. Honestly I'm ok how you do it cause too difficult a choice could be potentially game breaking.
2. Creative and Uncreative. I always thought creative was a little too good. But just upping it's pick cost didn't feel like a good idea to me. And the opposite for uncreative, I feel that is really harsh. No real reason for any one to pick it. I'm not sure if you can do this, cause you're not really recoding same specifics.
I thought the 2 always should have been like this:
Creative - cost say 3 picks. Works as standard but also every research tech cost is 30%-50% more. Which makes sense. You learn more tech per tier, so should take more RP's to learn it all. And only 3 picks cause of the increase RP's cost.
Uncreative - cost say minus 2 or minus 3 picks. Works as standard but also every research tech cost is say 25% less. Cause you can't choose your tech ever this uncreative, the less RP's cost per tech would actually make this uncreative actually a viable choice in some builds. Faster tech but you don't know which tech you'll get. Sure research blitzing with this could be a little OP if you get lucky with the tech. But on the other hand something like uncreative + feudal (if not bugged) + warlord + more money or more production or something could be a very interesting build.
That's all I can think of at the moment. And well done on a great job on your VDC mod.
Hi,
Thanks for high appraisal of the mod and for the feedback. I have a few comments on your points though:
1. There is already a good substitution for stellar in that place, it's mauler. Very much needed tech for two reasons - it can go through the planetary shields without need of bombs, and it completely ignores beam defense (+500 attack), so all beam defense specials except for displacement device become useless. This is particularly important when you are dealing with cloaking device or huge number of destroyers, which have higher beam defense due to their speed. Also with mauler you don't care about beam computer, i.e. you can opt for galactic cybernet for example.
As for stellar, it's a very late weapon, most of the games finish before someone can use stellar. And second point, it takes so much space you need at least Titans to put it. So you got to make other difficult choices in other tech fields in order to use stellar (i.e. get either titans or doomstars).
2. Creative is slow in the beginning, it needs very accurate and very proficient play in order to make use of it. Despite of the techs it gets opponent can out-tech or out-produce it and creative race will still lose. I can give couple of saves of my current game as reference. Repelled first wave, but outcome is not clear.
3. Uncreative got new tool to boost it, namely cryogen.exe Put it in the command line along with the game itself. With cryogen you improve the tech tree for uncreative, so it actually becomes playable. Still very weak, but not as dead as before. All depends on the luck with the tech tree.
What you propose for creative or uncreative can't be done without reprogramming, which I can't do due to its difficulty. But I don't think it is justified approach anyway: creative will be dead with increased costs for research, while for uncreative it won't matter, cause what matters is right techs in the tech tree (or right tech combo). Hope this helps.
Thanks for high appraisal of the mod and for the feedback. I have a few comments on your points though:
1. There is already a good substitution for stellar in that place, it's mauler. Very much needed tech for two reasons - it can go through the planetary shields without need of bombs, and it completely ignores beam defense (+500 attack), so all beam defense specials except for displacement device become useless. This is particularly important when you are dealing with cloaking device or huge number of destroyers, which have higher beam defense due to their speed. Also with mauler you don't care about beam computer, i.e. you can opt for galactic cybernet for example.
As for stellar, it's a very late weapon, most of the games finish before someone can use stellar. And second point, it takes so much space you need at least Titans to put it. So you got to make other difficult choices in other tech fields in order to use stellar (i.e. get either titans or doomstars).
2. Creative is slow in the beginning, it needs very accurate and very proficient play in order to make use of it. Despite of the techs it gets opponent can out-tech or out-produce it and creative race will still lose. I can give couple of saves of my current game as reference. Repelled first wave, but outcome is not clear.
3. Uncreative got new tool to boost it, namely cryogen.exe Put it in the command line along with the game itself. With cryogen you improve the tech tree for uncreative, so it actually becomes playable. Still very weak, but not as dead as before. All depends on the luck with the tech tree.
What you propose for creative or uncreative can't be done without reprogramming, which I can't do due to its difficulty. But I don't think it is justified approach anyway: creative will be dead with increased costs for research, while for uncreative it won't matter, cause what matters is right techs in the tech tree (or right tech combo). Hope this helps.
Thanks for your reply.
1. I agree here, and most games don't even get to stellar con anyways.
2. Have to agree creative is very slow till mid game where it explodes and becomes great. But till then you're at a disadvantage. Well there is one exception to this rule I'll talk about it below.
3. I agree uncreative needs some love. But exactly how to give it that love I dunno. You're improved uncreative tech tree is probably the best that can be done. Thanks for the effort though.
And now I'd like to talk about something I hinted at earlier.
I do realise you made your race talents pics point values based not on individual talents but based on the talent combos you can create. Best example is Unification-Tolerant. That as we know is very good early game. So those being the points you have them are very justified.
But . . . there is another combo. One that was just viable in patch 1.0 but not viable (uses too many points in 1.4. But in your VDC mod it's easy to use with points left over.
This combo is:
Creative + democracy + subterranean + whatever negatives you want to make that = zero picks.
In your VDC mod these 3 leave you at -5 picks so very easy to nick a neg or 2 to get to 0 or even a few more neg's and 4th positive pick.
I think you should have a game or two as this combo of picks. Just to see it for yourself. Sure early game it does not have the production power of uni-tol but you can choose use the extra cash to buyout at 50% and/or moving a scientist or 2 into production to offset this. Also cause you're researching every tech it just becomes a choice of when to build things. If you can survive the early stages this combo in my opinion is almost unbeatable.
To win you have to make a warship blitz and hope they haven't done a little defensive blitz of their own or go the long haul and spy like crazy. Which will be easy as in any serious difficulty, AI or human opponents one of the only ways people who use this combo lose is being spied to death. Cause of demo basically having tech stolen every other turn.
I know this is my opinion. But I wanted to give my insight into this combo for your Moo2 mod.
And thanks for replying to my post here.
1. I agree here, and most games don't even get to stellar con anyways.
2. Have to agree creative is very slow till mid game where it explodes and becomes great. But till then you're at a disadvantage. Well there is one exception to this rule I'll talk about it below.
3. I agree uncreative needs some love. But exactly how to give it that love I dunno. You're improved uncreative tech tree is probably the best that can be done. Thanks for the effort though.
And now I'd like to talk about something I hinted at earlier.
I do realise you made your race talents pics point values based not on individual talents but based on the talent combos you can create. Best example is Unification-Tolerant. That as we know is very good early game. So those being the points you have them are very justified.
But . . . there is another combo. One that was just viable in patch 1.0 but not viable (uses too many points in 1.4. But in your VDC mod it's easy to use with points left over.
This combo is:
Creative + democracy + subterranean + whatever negatives you want to make that = zero picks.
In your VDC mod these 3 leave you at -5 picks so very easy to nick a neg or 2 to get to 0 or even a few more neg's and 4th positive pick.
I think you should have a game or two as this combo of picks. Just to see it for yourself. Sure early game it does not have the production power of uni-tol but you can choose use the extra cash to buyout at 50% and/or moving a scientist or 2 into production to offset this. Also cause you're researching every tech it just becomes a choice of when to build things. If you can survive the early stages this combo in my opinion is almost unbeatable.
To win you have to make a warship blitz and hope they haven't done a little defensive blitz of their own or go the long haul and spy like crazy. Which will be easy as in any serious difficulty, AI or human opponents one of the only ways people who use this combo lose is being spied to death. Cause of demo basically having tech stolen every other turn.
I know this is my opinion. But I wanted to give my insight into this combo for your Moo2 mod.
And thanks for replying to my post here.
Return to “Game Modifications”
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 19 guests