"Very Difficult Choice" Mod, irc channel: irc.quakenet.org/vdc

Information, How-to's, and discussion about mod'ing Master of Orion II.
lostminstrel
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Postby lostminstrel » Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:18 pm

I got that they were 1 vs. 1 battles somewhere from this forum, but I cannot find that thread (it was an old one). Anyway, that could have been wrong, but it did seem right.

If you have 4 power armor marines vs. 4 marines without power armor (and same GC bonus), that is technically like 8 vs. 4 in terms of survival, but still 4 vs. 4 in terms of killing (i.e. the power armor marines are not better at killing than the normal ones, but they are better at surviving).

Unless the 4 normal marines are doing "focus fire", it seems like it is 1 vs. 1.

Let's say that the 4 power armor marines inflict 4 hits on the 4 normal marines as fast as the 4 normal marines inflict 4 hits on the 4 power armor maines (since their GC bonus is equal).

You have 4 dead normal marines and 2 dead power armor marines in that case, instead of 4 dead normal marines and 4 power armor marines with 1 hit point left. Right?

What really happened was it was 1 power armor marine vs. 1 normal marine. They each hit each other. Normal marine dies. Next normal marine comes up to fight the wounded power armor marine. They each hit each other and both die. Next power armor marine and next normal marine come up to fight, etc.

Does that make a little more sense? Sorry if I explained it bad, ha ha ha! Anyway, it seems like that is what happens, but perhaps you have ran more tests than I did in the past.

If it's right, that becomes important in terms of the amount of marines that survive to hold a colony or captured ship. Also, the "killing power" of the power armor marines is reduced with each casualty, and they incur a casualty every two hits. Basically, the wounds they sustain are not distributed randomly/evenly.

Anyway, it seems like the kind of modding I wanted to do is not possible with the current tools available. Basically, I can only adjust "values", like damage, research cost, race pick cost, and so on, right? Can I add or remove "mods" to weapons - like make graviton beam have the PD mod?

I'm still trying to get a sense of what is possible and impossible.

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:06 am

when you have same ground combat bonuses but one has double hits than the other you need half amount of marines to win the battle. i.e. in your example 2 marines with 2 hits will have 50% chance vs 4 marines with 1 hit. I don't understand why are you so concerned with how the actual combat can take place (1v1 or something else), since it calculates the outcome plainly by formula.
As for modding what is possible, what's not, I suggest you download and install OCL_Improved and GUI (makes it very easy to handle), so you could see the staff, which is possible to change without special coding. I will repeat again that OCL_Improved includes now about 99% of all the things, which can possibly be moded.

lostminstrel
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Postby lostminstrel » Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:27 am

Cool, thanks. I'll give those a go once I get a real computer again.

As for the GC thing - I felt that the way it was caluculated made it seem like it wasn't really a 4 vs. 4 free for all. When damage is done, it is done on a "focus fire" principle, which makes outcomes of combat feel like they are 1 vs. 1 (with reinforcements).

It's not such a bad thing though, just didn't feel realistic.

On the subject of ground combat, I reported in the "bugs" section that GC bonus leaders seem to give a flat +15 when invading, but their correct bonus in ship to ship. Have you also noticed this.

Changing gears to Androids - was the morale bonus for Android Workers every ironed out?

And a little different, but should Uni and Demo bonus apply to the corresponding androids? For example, I thought Uni got +50% food and PP because the people worked harder "for the greater good". Andriods get +3 to their trade already because they are robots and don't sleep. It seemed strange they also get the gov. bonus.

This could just be my take on androids though.

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:03 am

Changing gears to Androids - was the morale bonus for Android Workers every ironed out?
Android Workers receiving moral bonus was hardcoded. Not sure what you are asking here...
And a little different, but should Uni and Demo bonus apply to the corresponding androids? For example, I thought Uni got +50% food and PP because the people worked harder "for the greater good". Andriods get +3 to their trade already because they are robots and don't sleep. It seemed strange they also get the gov. bonus.
Goverment bonus implies organization of life throughout empire in a certain way. If their efforts or mentality is inclined towards one thing it's logical that droids get appropriate bonus in this area. :)

lostminstrel
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Postby lostminstrel » Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:03 pm

Never thought of it that way.

As for the Android Worker morale bonus - I was wondering if VDC had gotten rid of it, but you said it was hard coded.

Does the community feel that Android Workers getting morale is abuse of a glitch, or is it permissable in MP?

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:44 am

As for the Android Worker morale bonus - I was wondering if VDC had gotten rid of it, but you said it was hard coded.
Does the community feel that Android Workers getting morale is abuse of a glitch, or is it permissable in MP?
No, VDC didn't get rid of it. Well, if you ask me it was right decision by the game designers. If you left goverment bonus, but remove moral bonus, then workers would benefit Unification considerably more than other goverments, so it would be unbalanced. I think it's appropriate that they get moral bonus. Droids are overpowered on its own, because they allow quick spamming of pop, but in VDC they were well structured in the tech tree and their cost was increased, so prevents abuse.

Astax
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Postby Astax » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:24 am

Hey Overlord2. Thanks for the continued work on the mod.

I noticed there was a bias built into the recent mapgen for certain races. I found it intriguing! Would you think further biases could be considered to make some picks more viable? So far the only way it seems to encourage other races has been to nerf the strongest races, or make em impossible. But with mapgen many new things are possible. For example, could it be possible to add natives to the starting system? Maybe even an arti planet (thats not the HW of course). And would you view things like this as viable options to boost certain picks?

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:16 pm

Bias, huh? On the contrary I tried to get rid of bias. Can you give an example of what you think was biased?
For example, could it be possible to add natives to the starting system?
What do you mean here under starting system, the homeworld? You want natives in the homeworld :o? Not 100% sure, but I am afraid natives in hw or another arti won't be possible, since only 1 special per system is allowed.

Astax
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Postby Astax » Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:20 pm

I meant to say the mapgenerator is biased to certain picks. If you use a switch some picks don't get Gaia in home system is the one I noted. I'm not saying its not balanced or anything.

I thought about the natives going on a planet in the starting system. But I suppose they could also start on your homeworld, but that would create a very strong race.

I had not considered the second special not being possible. That would certainly put a damper on this method of balancing.

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:50 pm

I meant to say the mapgenerator is biased to certain picks. If you use a switch some picks don't get Gaia in home system is the one I noted. I'm not saying its not balanced or anything.
Well, gaia hw was designed as a special balance switch to keep subt race on comparable level with aqua pick (aqua gets considerably faster start) and keep it from huge randomness in finding gaias (it's performance varies hugely based on whether it finds gaias or not). So gaia switch was kind of pinpoint balance moderation. You may call it biased in this sense. Apart from this however I don't see anything else, which could be called biased towards certain picks. :P
I thought about the natives going on a planet in the starting system.
Forced natives in 6 parsecs distance? I didn't quite understand what exactly you want and what races you want to make biased and why :D

Astax
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Postby Astax » Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:02 pm

Well there are some picks right now that have no significance at all, but could be made attractive (and more costly). Like fantastic traders for example.

I don't have any exact examples I'd like to see, that's why I asked if you see any other ways we could use it to balance.

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:18 pm

No, I don't see any picks, which need biased map generation. Maybe an exception for deep negatives. However mapgen program could be improved further to balance the map itself, like adding -nonatives switch or -noarti, i.e. changing natives or artis within 6 parsecs from hw for something else. As soon as it will be possible, I will add it.

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MrDeath666
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Postby MrDeath666 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:06 am

Thank you, Overlord2, for such a good mod. It's really cool!
However, there are a couple things that I did not like.
For example, a form of government Feudalism. In the original, if I do not get them mixed up, it gave -50% in science. Now only -30% that is not enough, given that Feudalism is -11 points.

P.s. ????? ?????????? ????????? ?????? ?? ??????, ? ?? ????? ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ???? :D

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:07 am

Thank you, Overlord2, for such a good mod. It's really cool!
However, there are a couple things that I did not like.
For example, a form of government Feudalism. In the original, if I do not get them mixed up, it gave -50% in science. Now only -30% that is not enough, given that Feudalism is -11 points.
Feudalism was tested and it showed to be very strong. However it is bugged and hence is not used in MP games. Hope someday the bug will get fixed. To read about the bug go to the first page.
P.s. ????? ?????????? ????????? ?????? ?? ??????, ? ?? ????? ???????? ??????? ?? ??? ???? :D
This is english forum, for russian speech use either russian forums on mo3.fatal.ru or ag.ru or private messages by email.

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MrDeath666
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Postby MrDeath666 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:34 pm

This is english forum, for russian speech ...l
????, I'll try to write clearer :)
However it is bugged and hence is not used in MP games
I was referring to singleplayer.
Hope someday the bug will get fixed
I just meant that the negative bonus science is too small.
It would be nice to raise it to at least 50%


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