"Very Difficult Choice" Mod, irc channel: irc.quakenet.org/vdc

Information, How-to's, and discussion about mod'ing Master of Orion II.
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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:13 pm

Yes, I can modify the base hp of the structures, but if I increase hp, they become too endurable for the beginning of the game, which I want to avoid.
Edit: just came to realization of idea that huge amount of bombers will achieve the same result - hide in rear, shoot and destroy...
Ya but planetary PD can at least shoot down bombers. Ships in the defense line can also stop them. That's why I like even the high yield bombs , you have a chance to stop the ships or fighters before they reach the planet.
If there is huge amount of bomber BBs fewer pd ships won't help.
But if you caN stop bomber ships then you can stop plasma torpedoe ships as well.
The only problem lies within stellar with initiative, which can shoot at planet before you can destroy the ship(s). For this case I advise to get same computer/drives and battle station or starfortress, in what case you guarantee to get the initiative. Thus you can destroy his stellars before they can shoot.

bunker and etc needs reprogramming. As soon as I am able to do one thing, I will probably be able to do the rest.

LordLancelot
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Postby LordLancelot » Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:57 pm

Can you add a new switch for /no housing

that give +0 growth bonus instead of the default +150% ?

That way we could choose between the too.

I understand how no housing switch can help balance production race vs others, but giving +150% bonus to all make new problems, it speed up the game to bigger empire (longer turn) faster and probably give a edge to race with growth bonus.

We use VDC and we love 99% of it.

Keep up the good work.

I am also curious to see how a non production race could beat a Uni-Prod race even in VDC, some of your rating in strength value of race pick I do not agree with.

I would like to play someone good with a tech or creative race in VDC, to show me first hand. How the can beat a Strong Uni prod race (that i currently play).

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:43 am

Can you add a new switch for /no housing

that give +0 growth bonus instead of the default +150% ?
I was thinking about it, probably I will add it with the next update.

We use VDC and we love 99% of it.

Keep up the good work.
Thanks!
I am also curious to see how a non production race could beat a Uni-Prod race even in VDC, some of your rating in strength value of race pick I do not agree with.

I would like to play someone good with a tech or creative race in VDC, to show me first hand. How the can beat a Strong Uni prod race (that i currently play).
Sure, join IRC, I or some other players will be happy to show you.

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:28 am

VDC updated for 41b, some of crucial changes include:

- android building cost bounded with spies, i.e. 100 BC;
- added +0 housing growth for nohousing switch;
- reduced maximum combat rounds from 50 to 25;
- ion cannon damage reduced significantly.
- no gaia for creative via tgaia switch of mapgen program.

localhosed
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Postby localhosed » Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:17 pm

Thanks for making this available and updating the patch notes. I hadn't tried this mod since a year or two ago and I have been enjoying it lately.

flyinfart
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Postby flyinfart » Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:03 pm

I've been wondering why trans dimensional is so expensive. After searching the forums up and down, and finding nothing, figured I'd ask here. I read about somebody designing a race that abused trans dimensional in a 4 player map, abusing the speed of his ships to win inside of 50(?) turns, but in other circumstances its benefit seems negligible for its high cost. I mean, I'd rather spend those 7 points on sub, +pop, or really anything else.

Or, considering the speed advantage, what kind of rush race has been built abusing the power? Sorry if this question has been answered before.

EDIT::
Also, I was wondering if making lithtol races was intentionally made impossible or as a side effect of trying to balance democracy and unification?

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Tue Oct 25, 2011 3:47 pm

Transdimensional is very powerful military pick, because it increases both strategic speed by 2, and combat speed by 4, hence the initiative too. {edit: forgot to mention - it also increases fighters speed, which is another tactical advantage}
Increased strategic speed allows to enjoy quite tangible economic boost in early game - faster travelling of pop through empire and absolutely bloody strategic advantage when you are trying to fork opponent. Thus you can jump at a larger distance he can possibly cover, i.e. just outmaneuver him and hit in the place he cant defend. So strategically transd is very powerful pick. You really need to attack first in order not to lose game vs transd.
Or, considering the speed advantage, what kind of rush race has been built abusing the power? Sorry if this question has been answered before.
Having said the above, transd is not only rush race anymore, but can be used for long term game as well. As for rush race(s) - pick uni, telepathic, trandimensional and something...

As for lith and tolerant combo it has never been good, even when it fit. The cost of both tol and lith are adjusted on the basis of the races, which can be built using these picks individually, and it comes out that both picks are top powerful via certain combos, e.g. sub lith +60 pop large rich hw is much too powerful now, might as well nerf it :roll: , and also previously available - cyber tol +2 prod +50 pop rhw was overpowered (had to increase +50 pop to +60 and increase cost by 1 in order to cut that race). Hope this answers you well.
Thanks for making this available and updating the patch notes. I hadn't tried this mod since a year or two ago and I have been enjoying it lately.
Sorry for late reply, you are welcome!

Question
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Postby Question » Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:20 am

Okay might as well post my thoughts here...

+ production/research picks honestly do not seem to be worth their current cost. On an abudant planet, workers give +3 each. Unifcation gives +50%, which starts massively adding up when you factor in all the +production buildings. Lets say a planet has a max pop of 20 and i have +2 production...in the end thats only +40, which becomes a drop in the bucket mid-late game compared to % modifiers. For that same reason, artifact planet also seems a bit too expensive (might be worth it for pre-warp games though).

Spying chances still seem a bit low. Even with superior spy tech, sometimes it can take 20+ turns before anything happens (and thats with 20+ spies). I know that when i have zero defending spies, it still takes a long time before my techs get stolen. I dont think its worth it to buy + spy chance at the moment. The only time i had spying missions happen on a regular basis was when i took +20 spying chance, telepathic and was spying really early in the game. Late game, chances just dropped dramatically even with 63 spies on a single player. 10+ turns to sabotage something is silly when you have max spy techs and 63 spies.

Some of the tech choices seem to be no brainers...e.g food replicators and biospheres. Hydrophonic farms and armor garrisons. And in the case of gauss canons and shields, you can just skip shields, get gauss canons, and then get the higher level shield instead, so its pretty much a no brainer too.

Although im not sure what the point of shields in the early-mid game is. They seem to take almost no damage before going down.

Using heavy fighters is a pretty bad idea because they just bomb the planet to bits (instead of only killing the defence installations). For that matter, fighters are still pretty weak (cant control them, cant really intercept missles/fighters, easily killed via pulsars/spatial compressors, etc). Ive fought huge battles with 30+ battleships on both sides, and microing all the fighter launches is a huge pain, and even with xentronium, fighters just get destroyed by lightning fields and spatial compressors too easily. I could have won those battles with a minimum of effort with standard beam setups.

Something similar happens with missles...you can just one shot them with pulsars/spatial compressors and then wait for the enemy to run out of ammo.

Oh and warp core explosions wiping out entire missle/fighter waves.

Missles/fighters early game seem really hard to stop though, since you have no way to reliably shoot them down. The only time i could shoot them down was when i took +75 attack as a racial pick.

Also noticed something really weird with fighter speed. I took trans-dimensional, so my fighters should have been really fast...i launched them, then the enemy launched his, and my carriers instantly got blown up by his heavy fighters before my interceptors could touch his carriers. Uh? Also the "cross map instantly, blow up my ships" part makes it impossible to launch my own interceptors to target his fighters...

And i dont see any indication of +4 combat speed from trans dimensional either, unless its not listed on the scan screen in combat....

Bomber bays : space requirements seem a bit high, 1x bomb each isnt that impressive (although i have no idea whether fighters can miss in the first place).

Some leaders still seem useless (the fighter ace one...cyr i think).

If you reject a leader and then rehire him, the hiring screen doesnt tell you what tech he gives you (if any).

Anyone has any idea how exp gain works beyond instructors and space academies? My carrier fleets dont seem to be getting xp from combat ata ll.

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:08 am

Hi,

Let me try to answer your questions.

So about the race costs. First of all I want to say that race costs have undergone a lot of changes in search of balance and each pick cost matrix has been thoroughly tested via multiplayer. If anything imbalancing appeared measures were taken to smooth the unevenness. Second, you're trying to evaluate picks independently, which is fundamentally wrong. You gotta evaluate picks in combination with other picks, in result you get the race. The ultimate measure of a pick's effectiveness is the race performance. The idea of picks balance is to form such a matrix of pick costs, which allows any picks to be used for race construction, i.e. there are no underpowered picks left from one side and no overpowered races stay from the other side. Regarding the current picks layout there are no underpowered picks left out except for couple of deep negatives. But those are not possible to be balanced due to internal restrictions.
Speaking of your examples +prod is essential pick used for prod races. While +research is used less frequently, there are lots of viable races could be constructed on the basis of this pick.

About Spying. The recent practice (after increasing chances) shows that
spying became highly effective. Stealing 1 or 2 key techs in 15-20 turns can be the reason to decide the outcome of the game. I'm not sure what you observed, but statistics and reports from other people is different.

About 'no brainer choices' :): 1) replicators vs biosphere - replicator is broken atm, if it worked well it could be a good choice. In late game, when you have all moral techs/food enhancements food rep is of no use anyway.
2) Hydroponic farm vs armor barracks - farms are really needed when your pop makes 3 or less food at start, while cheap building cost of armor barracks helps dictatorship and feudal races.
3) Gauss Cannon vs class 7 shield - the thing is that most often you need good shield faster than you can get to class 10, especially when you take warp dissipator and miss class 4. The second issue is if you take class 10, you miss cloaking device, which is crucial tech in multiplayer games. So gauss cannon isn't preferred choice here in fact.

About low absorbtion factor of low shields. Here it depends what weapons you compare with the shields. Justified comparison will be when you compare weapons of the same tech level or in extreme case one level higher...Class 2 seems very low hp indeed, but it is extremely cheap. Imagine high damage absorbtion of class 2, then early beam wars would be impossible. Then Class 4 - it is sufficient to reduce efficiency of ion cannon and graviton beam significantly. If it stopped those weapons, they would be useless, wouldn't they? Also there is an option of combining class 4 with multiphased shields, in which case you get significant augmentation of shields hp.

About fighters maladies. The worst drawback of fighters is that you can't control them once they've been launched. Unfortunately nothing can be done about it. The second flaw is their beam defense parameter isn't sufficient for late game. And the most important factor is they are one time weapons, if they get destroyed you can't reuse them, i.e. they do not restore. Hence the conclusion - they are good before beams come into play, i.e. someone gets the molec. In this regard, cybertronic is not enough because it doesn't allow to shoot effectively from long distance.

About missiles. Missiles were ineffective up until I decreased cost of high ammo. Now they are viable, especially taking into account that when you decide for missiles, you usually take missile base structure, which is huge defensive power. Also mirv zeon destroyer can kill undefended neutronium BB.
Missles/fighters early game seem really hard to stop though, since you have no way to reliably shoot them down. The only time i could shoot them down was when i took +75 attack as a racial pick.
pointdefense beams with electronic computer work well at point blank, but much worse at a distance. So if you want to shoot at fighters from distance, you need either good computer or race bonus.
Also noticed something really weird with fighter speed. I took trans-dimensional, so my fighters should have been really fast...i launched them, then the enemy launched his, and my carriers instantly got blown up by his heavy fighters before my interceptors could touch his carriers. Uh? Also the "cross map instantly, blow up my ships" part makes it impossible to launch my own interceptors to target his fighters...
I have also noticed that sometimes interceptors don't acquire target or aren't fast enough to intercept. Can't tell anything definite about this, this matter should be studied.
And i dont see any indication of +4 combat speed from trans dimensional either, unless its not listed on the scan screen in combat....
You do get speed increase shown for the ships. Check again stats of the ships with and without transd.
Bomber bays : space requirements seem a bit high, 1x bomb each isnt that impressive (although i have no idea whether fighters can miss in the first place).
Bombers have a good feature in return, they can return to the carrier immediately and consequently escape from enemy fire.
Some leaders still seem useless (the fighter ace one...cyr i think).
He is navi, which is most important. Not many navi leaders in the game.
If you reject a leader and then rehire him, the hiring screen doesnt tell you what tech he gives you (if any).
cannot fix it, unfortunately.
Anyone has any idea how exp gain works beyond instructors and space academies? My carrier fleets dont seem to be getting xp from combat at all.
Good question... experience allocation from the battle won hasn't been studied so far.
Last edited by Overlord2 on Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:34 am, edited 2 times in total.

Question
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Postby Question » Sat Oct 29, 2011 8:15 am

But i dont see how +1 or +2 production is that good really, unless you possibly combine it with unification (but then you dont really have many picks left). Once you start building all the +production buildings, the only thing that really gives a noticeable boost in prod is leader bonus or morale bonus, because they work off %.

Artifacts world - Dont get the high cost of this, except in pre-warp games...

I tried playing a dictatorship and going armor instead of hydrophonic farms once. It really, really hurt. My homeworld had to have lots more farmers to support the barren/radiated worlds i had to colonize, which reduced my prod and science output dramatically. Definately not worth it.

Spying : The game moves too fast for this to only pay off once in every 10-20 turns, especially considering the sheer amount of resources you need to invest into this. 63 attacking spies + a large number of defending spies easily equal a massive battleship fleet. Sabotage is kind of a mixed bag...blowing up a starbase can be useful if thats the main thing stopping you from taking a planet....blowing up some random, low level building....worthless.

Fighters still die too fast to things like pulsars, spatial compressors, warp core explosions and lightning fields IMHO. They also suffer from the problem of "too many targetting a single ship". Missles are the same IMHO. Beams seem so much better from mid-late game (or even early game if you took +75 ship attack). I think it would be good if players had viable choices to specialise in each category for the entire game.

Biggest problem with missles is when you have so many missle waves but a single warp core explosions blow up half of the incoming missles. Then you run out of ammo and have to retreat. Or a single ship equipped with pulsars/spatial compressors takes them all out.

Never seen planetary missle bases pay off. Even the AI can get past it pretty easily, just zerg the planet with multiple ships and destroy the missle base with bombs or whatever.

Bombers : Isnt the fact that they only fire once before returning to the carrier a huge disadvantage? That seriously reduces the amount of ships you can kill. I am pretty sure that 3x interceptors vastly outdamage 1x bomber except possibly against planets.

Heavy fighters : I cant use them without genociding every planet with a defence installation. Possible to fix?

Navigators : Whats so useful about them? I have never seen black holes block ship movement in more than 6 games...

Charismatic : Is it possible to make it increase the chances of the AI wanting to trade techs with you? Right now it only seems useful for attracting famous leaders, but i have no idea how much higher the chance is.

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:42 pm

But i dont see how +1 or +2 production is that good really, unless you possibly combine it with unification (but then you dont really have many picks left). Once you start building all the +production buildings, the only thing that really gives a noticeable boost in prod is leader bonus or morale bonus, because they work off %.
Production bonus is important in several ways:
1) you build the buildings faster, hence you decrease time spent on building and increase time your pop could be used as scientists;
2) gives boost to housing and population growth;
3) produces more war ships in the same period of time than non-prod races.
For instance try the following race - dict, sub, aqua +2 prod +100 pop rich hw, or dict sub +2 prod +2 food +100 pop rich hw, you will see the power of +2 prod over +1 prod or no prod...
Artifacts world - Dont get the high cost of this, except in pre-warp games...
Arti is already 4 points, do you want it to be even cheaper? Generally arti gives early boost, which has cumulative impact. Also it could be used by blitz/rush races to get an edge over opponents, what shouldn't missed.

I tried playing a dictatorship and going armor instead of hydrophonic farms once. It really, really hurt. My homeworld had to have lots more farmers to support the barren/radiated worlds i had to colonize, which reduced my prod and science output dramatically. Definately not worth it.
If you pick +2 food race (or aqua & +1 food) you don't need hydroponic farms.
Spying : The game moves too fast for this to only pay off once in every 10-20 turns, especially considering the sheer amount of resources you need to invest into this. 63 attacking spies + a large number of defending spies easily equal a massive battleship fleet. Sabotage is kind of a mixed bag...blowing up a starbase can be useful if thats the main thing stopping you from taking a planet....blowing up some random, low level building....worthless.
What can I say, you haven't played competetive games, where spying means a lot, so you really cannot judge. Again, I will repeat, before the said change spying didn't work well enough, now it is considerably better. Just for the record, spying starts to be perceptibly effective, when your attack bonus prevails over opponent's defense bonus by about 20 points.
Fighters still die too fast to things like pulsars, spatial compressors, warp core explosions and lightning fields IMHO. They also suffer from the problem of "too many targetting a single ship". Missles are the same IMHO. Beams seem so much better from mid-late game (or even early game if you took +75 ship attack). I think it would be good if players had viable choices to specialise in each category for the entire game.
There are two flaws in your approach. First, if you over-increase hp of fighters, early beams will be totally useless agaist fighters/missiles. In fact they are already useless against high-tier missiles. Additionally compressors/pulsars will become much less effective, so other tech choices will dominate in those tech fields.
Second point is that in late game beams dominate over fighters and missiles in all cases, whatever hp increase you give to fighters. The problem lies within time lag for damage. Fighters and missiles do damage with considerable time lag, while beams do instant damage. Practically this thing makes missiles/fighters/torpedoes obsolete.
As for +75 offense race, it is good, but a little slow, compared to pure prod races or tech races. So the balance is kept.
Biggest problem with missles is when you have so many missle waves but a single warp core explosions blow up half of the incoming missles. Then you run out of ammo and have to retreat. Or a single ship equipped with pulsars/spatial compressors takes them all out.
Yep, if you don't like missiles, take torpedoes. However, missiles allow emg modification, while torpedoes don't...
Never seen planetary missle bases pay off. Even the AI can get past it pretty easily, just zerg the planet with multiple ships and destroy the missle base with bombs or whatever.
Join IRC and start multiplayer practice....
Bombers : Isnt the fact that they only fire once before returning to the carrier a huge disadvantage? That seriously reduces the amount of ships you can kill. I am pretty sure that 3x interceptors vastly outdamage 1x bomber except possibly against planets.
Its an advantage and disadvantage simultaneously. In some cases it's certainly an advantage, cause heavy fighters could be destroyed after first shot, while bombers after returning to the base are safe.
Heavy fighters : I cant use them without genociding every planet with a defence installation. Possible to fix?
Send less bombers. thats all... You might be observing fusion bomb bug...check and report if that's true.
Navigators : Whats so useful about them? I have never seen black holes block ship movement in more than 6 games...
+1 strategic speed, and more importantly, allows to jump at higher distance in one turn. For instance, with antimatter drive it allows to perform 6 parsecs jumps.
Charismatic : Is it possible to make it increase the chances of the AI wanting to trade techs with you? Right now it only seems useful for attracting famous leaders, but i have no idea how much higher the chance is.
Try playing difficulty level - hard or less. In 1.31 they decreased chances of AI being freindly on impossible level. Unfortunately I cannot modify AI in any way for the moment.

Question
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Postby Question » Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:43 am

Quick question : Why do plasma torpedoes fire nothing in combat? I have battleships loaded with 4 plasma torpedoes, overloaded, but when i fire them in combat, i get no projectile and no damage is done.

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:14 am

Quick question : Why do plasma torpedoes fire nothing in combat? I have battleships loaded with 4 plasma torpedoes, overloaded, but when i fire them in combat, i get no projectile and no damage is done.
This is improssible. Upload the save or screens of this.

Abemad
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Postby Abemad » Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:47 am

I've had the same problem with plasma torpedos... AI ships equipped with plasma torpedos, with no projectiles or damage (and they did fire them, there was a distinct "plasma torpedo sound") Dont think I have a savegame or replay, but I'll get one next time i happens.

Question
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Postby Question » Mon Oct 31, 2011 11:27 pm

Fired 4 plasma torpedoes at the guardian, no projectile appeared.

http://i.imgur.com/hrCWT.jpg


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