"Very Difficult Choice" Mod, irc channel: irc.quakenet.org/vdc

[Overlord2]

Everything is beautiful but creatiwe is too strong, 4-way spoils the fun and even 1v1 is nasty.

Hi Jano,
Nice to see you on the forum.
Creative was specifically optimized for 1v1 games, but in x-ways it receives extra advantage indeed, owing to more time for safe development. However if you nerf creative more than it is now, it will become totally unplayable. So my only advice will be to ban creative, if you don't like playing against it. Personally I ban creative in x-ways myself.

[ittarter]

I been trying the usual. Play few Uni Sub, Demo Aqua, Cyber Tol. I find I stink with Cyber Tol the most atm

Did you watch Cabman's cyber tol video? I think you need to review it again, and try to repeat his actions...

Where can I find instructions on how to watch MOO2 vids?

[Cabman]

Try this: http://masteroforion2.blogspot.com/2008 ... howto.html

[Jano]

Hi Overlord2.

My remark about creativ is not so serious. I know that you can always give a ban. A good spy also may reduce the technological edge creative.

[creolis]

Hi guys. I must say the mod is very interesting. I can see a really good chance to play as feudal. Changes in leaders (many of them now come with a technology) allow to choose charismatic like an advantange for non-tech races for only 2 points.
May you advance a nice race to play let's say with AIs and without. I tried to play with picks feudal and warlord. Any suggestions what to use as other picks playing 1vs1 plus 2-3 AIs / without AIs?

Also I ownder whether I may substitute negative picks in Dict+2Prod+RHW+Cyb+Tol-sd-gc-rep choice with just feudal instead of Dict?

I don't have much experience playing without AIs though, will feudal pick survive in no AIs games?

[Overlord2]

Hi Overlord2.

My remark about creativ is not so serious. I know that you can always give a ban. A good spy also may reduce the technological edge creative.

If you say my reply doesn't satisfy you, it means you have something in mind...what is your proposition on creative?

[Overlord2]

Hi guys. I must say the mod is very interesting.

Hi,
here are some answers to your questions...

I tried to play with picks feudal and warlord. Any suggestions what to use as other picks playing 1vs1 plus 2-3 AIs / without AIs?

Any good dict race picks, can be used with feudal as well. I would especially note the ones, which include +100 pop growth pick: since feudal lacks research it requires more early pop.

Also I wonder whether I may substitute negative picks in Dict+2Prod+RHW+Cyb+Tol-sd-gc-rep choice with just feudal instead of Dict?

You can, but this race will be slower, see the above comment.

I don't have much experience playing without AIs though, will feudal pick survive in no AIs games?

Actually yes, and it looks too powerful now... Unfortunatley because of feudal bug, feudal race is excluded from the games and because of that I cannot estimate its real strength and optimize its cost.
If feudal bug gets fixed I will return to this topic.

[Astax]

What is the feudal bug?

[Overlord2]

What is the feudal bug?

In MP non-feudal race's ships receive cost as of feudal race (and vice versa) and consequently refit costs huge amount of resources. For feudal you can scrap expensive ships and get more cash than you possibly could by trading goods...E.g. in 1 turn you produce 500pp, lets say 1 BB per turn, but your ship is assigned 1300-1500 cost. Consequently you scrap it for 650-750BC, more than by trading goods with fantastic trader pick.
The first problem is more important though. Players vs feudal are forced to refit ships at shocking costs (e.g. 1 BB - 900 pp), which kills the game.
The funny thing is that this happens not on permanent basis, but at random. My guess it's connected with wrong memory reading...

[Astax]

That is interesting indeed. While you could make player not scrap, the other thing is a problem.

[creolis]

It's interesting for me how spy bonuses affect the whole technology stealing process. I saw that such an article before but there was no clear answer about it. Now in VDC mode we have rather cheap "price" for +20 spying.

What can you say (or refer to the corresponding topic) about spying efficiency in pure 1vs1 or with 2 AIs?

Is there any calculation formula for spying available?

[Overlord2]

It's interesting for me how spy bonuses affect the whole technology stealing process. I saw that such an article before but there was no clear answer about it. Now in VDC mode we have rather cheap "price" for +20 spying.

You're right, so far there is no clear answer on spying bonuses efficiency and practice shows contradictory results: sometimes you steal with fewer spies and worse bonuses, but perhaps it's just lucky dice rolls.
I will answer your first question now, as for the second maybe I will have clear answer later (tf8 and I are working to decode the spying formula).

What can you say (or refer to the corresponding topic) about spying efficiency in pure 1vs1 or with 2 AIs?

The key in spying efficiency is time. MP games are very much time limited, after the contact you usually have no more than 20-30 turns, then follows dénouement...during this time you can steal techs. Sometimes stealing a key tech like ship computer, armor or VRN (or Supercomputers) can decide the whole game. Naturally the chance of success of stealing is determined by the spying bonuses: the better spying bonuses the more chances. However, what tech you will steal is also random. You may steal couple of techs, but not so important ones. So efficiency is doubly random.
The serious breakthrough is when you begin to steal techs one by one, which happens when your offense spying bonus much prevails over opponent's defense bonus. But this depends on opponent's race. It may happen that you take +20 spying bonus, while your oponent takes unification and all your spying strategy is lost in vain, you lose picks just so and your race is slower without any gain. For instance, with the same cost you could take warlord, which would be of much more benefit...As a conclusion: +20 spying bonus could be effective against demo and dict with -spy negative, in other cases it's a zilch. As one of my friends said: "your race would devastate demo, but now (vs uni) it's doom and gloom"

[creolis]

The key in spying efficiency is time. MP games are very much time limited, after the contact you usually have no more than 20-30 turns, then follows dénouement...during this time you can steal techs. Sometimes stealing a key tech like ship computer, armor or VRN (Supercomputers) can decide the whole game. Naturally the chance of success of stealing is determined by the spying bonuses: the better spying bonuses the more chances. However, what tech you will steal is also random. You may steal couple of techs, but not important ones. So efficiency is doubly random.
The serious breakthrough is when you begin to steal techs one by one, which happens when your spying offense bonuse much prevails over opponent's defense bonus. But this depends on opponent's race. It may happen that you take +20 spying bonus, while your oponent takes unification and all your spying strategy is lost in vain, you lose picks just so and your race is slower without any gain. For instance, with the same cost you could take warlord, which would be of much more benefit...As a conclusion: +20 spying bonus could be effective against demo and dict with -spy negative, in other cases it's a zilch. As one of my friends said: "your race would devastate demo, but now (vs uni) it's doom and gloom"

Thank you for the answer. I agree that key point for spying is the time. So can we say that spying could be the key feature of a race. The aim for such a race will be to reach an opponent as soon as possible. One can use outposts, another one may research better fuel, etc.

Can such approach be practical enough? Of course, you will invest in spies but still choose productive race in general to be more tough and got many planets to grow pop.

Is there something I missed talking about a brilliant spying skill?

[Overlord2]

You can not only spy, but attack early too, by blitzing with specially designed race. But generally for early spying purposes you'll need to defend your OPs (if you rely on duets) or to tech irridium fuel cells, but that cannot really happen before you tech supercomputers, or you leave yourself so much behind that even spying supercomputers from the enemy later won't help you. Consequently the earliest possible time of contact will be late 80s or 90s.
So far I haven't thought of good spying race, which could expand well and simultaneously spam the spies, which are quite expensive on their own. If you suggest one, I might as well try it and report the results. Note that if you encounter race which is invulnerable to spyig (like uni), your efforts on early contact and building spies will be wasted, and also you leave yourself open to invasion as your opponent sees your vulnerabilities and picks early invasion strategy. Since your spying race isn't a tech race it will be very difficult to stop such early invasion and scenario of "doom and gloom" will realize.

[Jos]

I've been enjoying VDC alot, but need to ask about the map generation:

With VDCGM2 i'm getting a crazy rich galaxy with gaia's, rich, large good planets everywhere! It's too much for me.
So what i want to know is, how can i change the map generator to be something more like Siron's DC mod map generation, or just use the Orange mod map generator?