"Very Difficult Choice" Mod, irc channel: irc.quakenet.org/vdc

Information, How-to's, and discussion about mod'ing Master of Orion II.
Eldariel
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Postby Eldariel » Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:13 am

Hm, is there a comprehensive changes-list anywhere? Having been out-of-loop for some iterations, I'd love something that allows me to just compare the newest edition to basic MoO2 v1.40, but I was unable to find anything beyond the race summaries, at least in the package itself.

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:57 am

Hm, is there a comprehensive changes-list anywhere? Having been out-of-loop for some iterations, I'd love something that allows me to just compare the newest edition to basic MoO2 v1.40, but I was unable to find anything beyond the race summaries, at least in the package itself.
I don't keep the list of changes compared to original because its an independent mod. At the same time you can find complete .xls description file of VDC mod with the provided archive.

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Da_Brick
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Postby Da_Brick » Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:34 pm

Evo needs to be 6, IMHO. 4 is not worth the trouble researching it!
Maybe 7... at LEAST 5.
Any delectable chickadees wishing to learn the art of bricklaying, please inquire at RealHomesRBuiltWithBrick@gmail.com =D

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Wed Feb 24, 2010 7:48 am

If you make it 7 or 6 it will be easy to save 1 or 2 points (especially 1 as many races require only 39 points in VDC26) and take +50 attack bonus, which I want to avoid. The +50 attack mutation bonus used with moleculatronic computer breaks the balance between beam defense and beam attack, giving 250 attack vs 200 defense provided by inertial nullifier, which becomes useless tech at 7500RPs level! When I was balancing attack and defense, I completely overlooked bonus from mutation. Lets see, if the current solution doesn't work well, I'll make some changes.
Last edited by Overlord2 on Sat Nov 06, 2010 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

ittarter
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Postby ittarter » Thu Mar 25, 2010 7:36 pm

Hi,

I'm trying to run your mod but when I try to run the .exe files (either one) I get this message:

"the image is valid, but is for a machine type other than this machine"

I'm running 64-bit Windows XP, and I'm assuming that the 64-part is the culprit.

Any suggestions?

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:26 am

Hi,

I'm trying to run your mod but when I try to run the .exe files (either one) I get this message:

"the image is valid, but is for a machine type other than this machine"

I'm running 64-bit Windows XP, and I'm assuming that the 64-part is the culprit.

Any suggestions?
I believe you can't run dos executable on win 64 machine directly. You will need to use dosbox application for it. Check the dosbox setup guide here:
http://masteroforion2.blogspot.com/2006 ... guide.html

ittarter
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Postby ittarter » Fri Mar 26, 2010 4:30 pm

I am able to run the regular .exe with the following batch file

cd C:\Games\Microprose\Orion2
start /w C:\Games\Microprose\Orion2\Orion95.exe
start C:\Windows\explorer.exe

but, when I try to play your .exe (either one), it doesn't work. Go figure.

I don't like using dosbox because I don't like my Explorer being deactivated while playing MOO2. Is this really the only way to play your mod on a 64-bit system?

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Sat Mar 27, 2010 8:32 am

I am able to run the regular .exe with the following batch file

cd C:\Games\Microprose\Orion2
start /w C:\Games\Microprose\Orion2\Orion95.exe
start C:\Windows\explorer.exe

but, when I try to play your .exe (either one), it doesn't work. Go figure.

I don't like using dosbox because I don't like my Explorer being deactivated while playing MOO2. Is this really the only way to play your mod on a 64-bit system?
I don't play it on 64 bit version, I play it on 32 bit version and it works fine there.
If you have problems making compatible 16-bit dos programs with 64-bit OS from Microsoft, you are free to write them for technical support. Unfortunately, I am not in position to help here.

ittarter
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Postby ittarter » Sat Mar 27, 2010 10:00 am

I understand. Thanks all the same.

ittarter
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Postby ittarter » Sun Mar 28, 2010 12:18 am

By the way, I've been diddling around on your mod (figured out DosBox after all) and just wanted to say, I really like how you did the negative picks. The more I think about it, the more everything makes so much more sense. The basic idea, if I understand it correctly, is that you BUILD your race around the negative picks you choose, and now, you can build it around six or seven major negatives (e.g. uncreative, low-g, -1 prod, feudal) or combine minor negatives (e.g. -sa -sd -spy). In vanilla you only had two or three possible sets because the other negatives were grossly undervalued. For example, it's not that you can't overrule -research by choosing a demo govt, but rather, that -research is equivalent in the long run to multiple hits elsewhere (e.g. repulsive -sd -gc) and therefore should be worth the same.

I've been having fun brainstorming builds and wondered if any of them were used on MP (I've played hotseat a couple times but never online;97% of my play is SP). I'll skip the -sa ones since I imagine due to the issue of initiative they are less common:

uncreative, telepathic, +20 spy, uni, sub, +50 pop

repulsive, -1 research, +1 bc, +10 spy, demo, sub, +50 pop, LHW

low g, -20 sd, +1 prod, +2 research, demo, aqua, LHW

Have you noticed any key pick combos being used regularly? Or is that precisely what you are trying to avoid, when you speak of nerfing "overpowered" races? With 26 versions to your mod, I'm guessing you've had lots of chances to identify and rectify such builds.......

One more thing. Assuming evol mutation is still 4 picks, do you have people saving 1 pick "in the bank" so they can still choose warlord? or what is commonly done now?

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:10 am

Surprisingly -attack negative is common, since its one of the ways to get full bonus (-12). Mostly its taken by tech races, which can offset the negative effect by researching higher ship computer later.
about your races:
uncreative, telepathic, +20 spy, uni, sub, +50 pop
Investing too many picks into non-economic picks doesn't pay off. Even if you manage to steal many techs, you won't be able to use them, becuase your race lacks production capabilities, and is generally slow in development. It might happen that when you will be trying to steal something making a contact, game will be over for you...Of course not in case of playing vs AI.
repulsive, -1 research, +1 bc, +10 spy, demo, sub, +50 pop, LHW
The main trump of demo is fast research, I don't think it is a good idea to cut research for demo. The races which might consider taking -research are the ones who grow pop very quickly, to compensate population's ineffectiveness by its quantity. So the best candidate for -research pick is sub lith +100 pop.
low g, -20 sd, +1 prod, +2 research, demo, aqua, LHW
LowG is really a bad pick, I might even reduce the cost for it. I doubt lowG could be used effectively with any race without +100 pop growth. In your example. +0.5 BC instead of +1 prod would be preferable.
Have you noticed any key pick combos being used regularly? Or is that precisely what you are trying to avoid, when you speak of nerfing "overpowered" races?With 26 versions to your mod, I'm guessing you've had lots of chances to identify and rectify such builds.......
Aqua-Demo-Cash races are played rather often, Uni-Aqua-Prod races and Dict-Sub-Lith-Pop and Dict-Cyber-Tol-Prod races. But there are many other races, which are played too.
With each subsequent edition there are less and less "overpowered" races left, and many new races become playable. Even feudalism is playable now, unless the unpleasant bug, which disallows to use it.
One more thing. Assuming evol mutation is still 4 picks, do you have people saving 1 pick "in the bank" so they can still choose warlord? or what is commonly done now?
The common is as much as before +offense, since it not only increases attack, but gives initiative advantage too. However warlord is now a viable choice since the difference between +25 attack and +15 attack from warlord isn't big.
But generally mution became less attractive on early stages of the game after nerfing the points from 8 to 4. I guess its right, because previously a tech race could get mutation much earlier making war races kinda ineffective by easily offsetting their bonuses.
Last edited by Overlord2 on Fri Apr 02, 2010 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

ittarter
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Postby ittarter » Sun Mar 28, 2010 2:47 pm

Investing too many picks into non-economic picks doesn't pay off. Even if you manage to steal many techs, you won't be able to use them, becuase your race lacks production capabilities, and is generally slow in development. It might happen that when you will be trying to steal something making a contact, game will be over for you...Of course not in case of playing vs AI.
I would have thought that uni sub +50pop would have been sufficient for production. Guess not...
The main trump of demo is fast research, I don't think it is a good idea to cut research for demo. The races which might consider taking -research are the ones who grow pop very quickly, to compensate population's ineffectiveness by its quantity. So the best candidate for -research pick is sub lith +100 pop.
That makes sense.
LowG is really a bad pick, I might even reduce the cost for it. I doubt lowG could be used effectively with any race without +100 pop growth. In your example. +0.5 BC instead of +1 prod would be preferable.
Surprising. Isn't the +1 prod race bonus immune to lowg effects?

Okay, since you mentioned -sa is common...

1. -sa, repulsive, telepathic, +2 prod, demo, aqua

2. -sa, repulsive, +2 research, +50 growth, uni, sub

3. -sa, -sd, -spy, +1 food, +2 prod, uni, sub

For SP I'm a big fan of telepathic since it makes taking over large empires (huge galaxy) much less boring, since you don't have to worry about transports anymore; however in MP it would be less viable in this mod because of the increased viability of planetary defenses -- you can't just send single cruisers and battleships around to claim planets.

Since aqua and sub are now equal in pick values I'd guess that, in general, you would want to match aqua with demo (so you have some semblance of a food bonus) and uni with sub (since uni govt already has a food bonus, take the greater and more consistent pop bonus that sub offers). On the other hand, uni aqua multiplies the food bonus.

I guess my question here is whether it's generally more effective to choose picks that mitigate your weaknesses ("mixed race"), or instead to multiply your strengths thematically thereby making your weaknesses irrelevant. It sounds to me like the latter is more common in MP. The first two of the three -sa races listed above constitute mixed races, so perhaps the +2 research of Race #2 should be switched to +2 prod, and the +2 prod of Race #1 should be switched to +2 research.

Thanks for your feedback. It's very helpful and interesting.

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:02 am

>LowG is really a bad pick...
Surprising. Isn't the +1 prod race bonus immune to lowg effects?
No, on what grounds should it be immune, huh?
Okay, since you mentioned -sa is common...
Its common for tech races, for other races it doesn't make sense.
guess my question here is whether it's generally more effective to choose picks that mitigate your weaknesses ("mixed race"), or instead to multiply your strengths thematically thereby making your weaknesses irrelevant. It sounds to me like the latter is more common in MP.
Yes, more effective is to magnify your strong facets, than mitigate weaknesses.
I will discuss it with your races in more details:
1. -sa, repulsive, telepathic, +2 prod, demo, aqua
This is a bad race. Generally telepathic race due to its high cost could be used effectively with rush races only. In that case, taking -attack doesn't justify.
But good race for demo involving +prod pick will be: Aqua, Demo, +50 pop, +1 prod, +0.5 BC, rich hw.
2. -sa, repulsive, +2 research, +50 growth, uni, sub
This race is "neither fish, nor meat", as it's neither a prod race, nor a tech race. With supercomputers you will be doing 8 RPs per one scientist, whereas demo race will be doing 10.2, further going for heightened intelligence, astrouniversity and federation demo race will be doing 15.6 RPs per scientist, while you will be doing 10 at max and you will be far behind in research. The fundamental way how unification can compete with demo is colonizing more worlds, producing more pop, and building more research-buildings. Also spamming sci androids is an option. Unification isn't designed for being tech race after all :P
-sa, -sd, -spy, +1 food, +2 prod, uni, sub
Hypothetically, this race is playable, but -attack will hurt. Also it's not the fastest unification race. Uni Sub +2 prod rich hw is better, with no -attack shortcoming. The main strategy for unification is to attack early and keep pressure. Beam weapons and initiative are very important in this case.

ittarter
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Postby ittarter » Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:18 pm

Thanks for all your advice. I'm going to try it out! SP is not a great place to test it, I know, but I should at least discern a huge gain in speed as my empire grows. I think I've only gotten 100 pop by turn 100, like, once (excepting conquered population in small or medium galaxies) and I'd like to be able to do it on a semi-regular basis, at least with an expansionist build like some of the ones you suggested.

One final question, or rather, set of questions. I've gotten the impression that MP is never played in huge galaxies. Is it ever played in large or small, or is it mostly just medium? Would tech races be more common in larger galaxies, and rush races almost non-existent?

Thanks again!

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:39 am

Standard setup played is large size galaxy, organic rich and average start (with one colony ship and two scouts). Also the mapgenerator program's and LordBrazen's switches are applied. Here is an example of dosbox config startline:

VDCGM2.exe /skipintro /nobh /nowh /planets=4 /nonebula /nosplint /noorion /noreport
mapgen.exe -ttoxic -tfixedhw -ttiny -tupoor -ssplint -mmonst
VDCGM2.exe /skipintro /nobh /nowh /planets=4 /nonebula /nosplint /noorion /noreport

As soon as the game loads you quit from the game, mapgenerator launches automatically, performing the set of commands of terraforming. Then the game launches again.
You can find details on LordBrazen's 1.40b23 patch commands here (item 3.2): http://lordbrazen.blogspot.com/2005/01/ ... h-faq.html
As for mapgenerator program commands, you can find details here:
http://masteroforion2.blogspot.com/2009 ... rator.html
Would tech races be more common in larger galaxies, and rush races almost non-existent?
Due to solid balance in VDC prod races can expand in huge galaxies with the same effectiveness as tech races if not better, no overwhelming advantages of either. By the way, in regular moo prod races rule. In VDC mod map generator and starting conditions play more important role. As it goes with good start any race will "rock". As for rush races, rush can comfortably be performed on large galaxies too, however it isn't considered as a good way of winning.


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