"Very Difficult Choice" Mod, irc channel: irc.quakenet.org/vdc

Information, How-to's, and discussion about mod'ing Master of Orion II.
Valprax
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Joined:Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:02 pm

Postby Valprax » Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:57 am

i read sum of what u said and frankly its meaningless theory u simply dont understand multiplayer cuz u havent ever done it; i think u should play a few games before telling us whats "correct" and what should be what.

I pick -ship attack almost every game and it works fine for me

Thank you.

Parabola
Posts:11
Joined:Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:52 pm

Postby Parabola » Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:22 pm

Hey, I'd just like to say that this mod is great! Balance of Uni is much much better. Thank you for your hard work, it has improved MoOII significantly.

I'd just like to nit pick and point out a few things:
-Clarify in Computer descriptions that missile chance to hit isn't effected by better computer?
-Clarify in description that Xentronium protects from Armor Piercing Weapons (it did in 1.31, I don't imagine it would have changed).
-Imperium has "Barracks" spelled wrong twice.
-Class II Shield should read "10 times".
-Emissions Guidance should be "applied"
-Swap names of Xentronium & Adamantium ? Just seems cooler that Adamantium is best rather than some weird name :D
-Orion ship still has Pd/Hv Particle beams.

Then questions about balance:
-Only way to get 900 RP VRN is to take risk and try to steal SuperComps from Uni's..doesn't seem worth it, if you don't steal it it's probably game.
-Why is 1500 RP tech +5% Spying and 650 RP +5% spying. Whereas Psionics 650 RP gives +10% Spying & +10% Moral (dict only) and Neural Scanner gives +10% @ 150 RP ? Seems unfair.
-Telepathic Races can get telepathic training?? And it's not even the 10% that Telepathy gives, just seems weird.
-Spying +20 maybe too cheap, Spy + 20 and Telepathy +10 = +30% spying (and mind control) for 7 points, much better than creative/Research +1/+2 at 3/5/7 points.
-Demo seems to weak, Dict psionics + spying bonus + 5 more points much stronger. Imperium also seems much stronger than Federation, Imperium colonies 30% more morale (barracks 20 + psionics 10), that's almost more research on dict than a demo..
-50% growth maybe too cheap?

Astax
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Postby Astax » Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:15 pm

I think I can only agree with -50% growth being too cheap :)

Demo is not expensive now. And it can be paired with something like creative. Thought I never play demo only races, because they take a certain tech order I have not mastered yet.

Demo also does not require barracks at start to keep morale. Yes you can get Armor barracks as Dictator but you still need 20 hammers per colony and you pass up other techs like fighter garrison or Hydros.

Telepathic race getting telepathic training is perfectly fine. You know how to run, but you are not an athlete. You can't just run a marathon without training.

Also why would you not take Virtual Reality Network as Sub lith dictator race? Seems perfectly fine to me.

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Thu Jun 04, 2009 6:32 am

Hi,
Hey, I'd just like to say that this mod is great! Balance of Uni is much much better. Thank you for your hard work, it has improved MoOII significantly.
Thank you for kind words, I did try hard to balance things out.
I'd just like to nit pick and point out a few things:
-Clarify in Computer descriptions that missile chance to hit isn't effected by better computer?
OK, I'll correct it.
But you have to read manuals or game faqs sometimes. I cannot write precise description for every tech in game and give precise definition what it's doing in all cases.
Just speaking of your case it's clearly written in description for cybertronic computer that it gives bonus to beams. If you use logic a bit you can extrapolate it to other computers as well.
-Clarify in description that Xentronium protects from Armor Piercing Weapons
I'll do it.
-Imperium has "Barracks" spelled wrong twice
Huh, indeed. I'll correct it.
-Class II Shield should read "10 times".
Yes, it's stick together, will be corrected.
-Emissions Guidance should be "applied"
Hm. I never touched it, but it is spelled wrong. Odd. Sure, I'll correct this one.
-Swap names of Xentronium & Adamantium ?
Nah. I don't want to confuse people.
Orion ship still has Pd/Hv Particle beams
The Orion ship design is hardcoded. Well, I have to repeat that I made my mode with a view to MP games, and didn't pay attention to antares or orionguard alike. But does it hurt so much? I think better guardian for singleplayer would be even better :roll:

Then questions about balance:
-Only way to get 900 RP VRN is to take risk and try to steal SuperComps from Uni's..doesn't seem worth it, if you don't steal it it's probably game.
Statistically Virtual reality is chosen in about 50% cases in MP games. It's not underpowered, it's one of the difficult choices.
-Why is 1500 RP tech +5% Spying and 650 RP +5% spying. Whereas Psionics 650 RP gives +10% Spying & +10% Moral (dict only) and Neural Scanner gives +10% @ 150 RP ? Seems unfair.
This is misconception: it doesn't matter where the tech is placed, the main thing is the choice alternative in the tech field. Thus for me it was unfair that you couldn't take EMG or Range Master Unit when Cybersecurity link was 10.
Telepathic Races can get telepathic training?? And it's not even the 10% that Telepathy gives, just seems weird.
He he, you mean Darlocks with uncreative? Thelepathic training is viable choice only for uni or uncreative. In order not to make uni overpowered at spying, telepathic training is 5.
-Spying +20 maybe too cheap, Spy + 20 and Telepathy +10 = +30% spying (and mind control) for 7 points, much better than creative/Research +1/+2 at 3/5/7 points.
In SP yes, where you have 8 AIs. Try it in duel vs human :wink:
-Demo seems to weak, Dict psionics + spying bonus + 5 more points much stronger. Imperium also seems much stronger than Federation, Imperium colonies 30% more morale (barracks 20 + psionics 10), that's almost more research on dict than a demo..
First of all demo is obliged to get every spying tech it can. Second, it has 50% bonus to research, one shouldn't forget about it. When dictatorship gets Astro University it enjoys +1 research per scientist, whereas demo enjoys +1.5 and so on. Finally 50% cash bonus. If you take +BC it works multiplicatively. But I shouldn't be writing all this.
Demo is playable and is viable choice and can win any race. Proven statistically.
-50% growth maybe too cheap?
Don't understand. Is it underpriced or overpriced, i.e. is it a good choice at -8 or bad?
Last edited by Overlord2 on Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Ai_Mania
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Postby Ai_Mania » Thu Jun 04, 2009 6:59 am

Ha! Told ya 150 for neural and a change for cyb security to 5 from 10 was unreasonable.

I don't care you think it was unfair, that is what creative is for. Or that is what compromise is for. And it is supposed to be a difficult choice & substantiality mod :), which it largely is.

I think he means -8 for growth is too much, real worth is probably half of that.
"Humanity is revealed in the games you play and how you play."

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Cabman
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Postby Cabman » Thu Jun 04, 2009 7:52 am

Interesting then WHY no one takes it even for -8 in MP games? :)

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:12 am

Ha! Told ya 150 for neural and a change for cyb security to 5 from 10 was unreasonable.

I don't care you think it was unfair, that is what creative is for. Or that is what compromise is for. And it is supposed to be a difficult choice & substantiality mod :), which it largely is.
This is my mode, and I change things here how I see fit. If you don't like what I've done you are free to create your own mod. However all your suggestions are taken from air and your arguments lack ground. I won't consider your posts anymore.

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Ai_Mania
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Postby Ai_Mania » Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:36 am

Interesting then WHY no one takes it even for -8 in MP games? :)
Beacuse Repulsive exists. Even if you wanted this -8, you couldn't mix it with repulsive.

Repulsive gains you roughly 5 unfair points (by value), this gains you 3 or 4. You are better off with repulsive. The problem is fitting negatives into the exact -10 and not many combinations exist.
This is my mode, and I change things here how I see fit. If you don't like what I've done you are free to create your own mod. However all your suggestions are taken from air and your arguments lack ground. I won't consider your posts anymore.
Uaaaa. You're taking everything too hard. What mattered was: "your mod is great". When I tried some constructive criticism: fu** of*. You have to be really smart and dedicated to say something intelligent around here...

Free dialogue: forbidden
"Humanity is revealed in the games you play and how you play."

c'g~
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Location:Ukraine

Don't be offended rofl

Postby c'g~ » Thu Jun 04, 2009 10:45 am

Ha! Told ya 150 for neural and a change for cyb security to 5 from 10 was unreasonable.

I don't care you think it was unfair, that is what creative is for. Or that is what compromise is for. And it is supposed to be a difficult choice & substantiality mod :), which it largely is.
This is my mode, and I change things here how I see fit. If you don't like what I've done you are free to create your own mod. However all your suggestions are taken from air and your arguments lack ground. I won't consider your posts anymore.
Omg, Irakly is pissed: it’s rare to see him like that towards people which are interested in his Mod.

But you know Ai_Mania, you have the point: VDC is supposed to be difficult choice mod. Supposed to… lol. Moreover, it seems that you know how to use your head, and you have the courage to express your thoughts regardless of opinion of ‘seasoned MoO2 veterans’ which supposedly know everything in such complex system called MoO2. Congrats with that. (Btw StarCraft is 10 years old, played by Koreans Pro 10 hours per day and new strats/builds are still discovered; but we know everything, I mean EVERYTHING about MoO2 and all of its Mods by playing it with 5 people at most two times per week – what a phenomenon!).

On the other hand, Irakly is right: you’re lacking MP experience, Ai_Mania. Your opinion and thoughts about the game will change gradually with gained experience. So don’t be offended, Irakly are pushing you towards Multiplayer and he’ll melt after you became one of them lol. Community needs you rofl.

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:16 pm

Omg, Irakly is pissed: it’s rare to see him like that towards people which are interested in his Mod.
I just don't like when people tell me what I should do in my own business. However I take reasonable suggestions, supported by profound argumentation. So far I haven't seen any reasonable suggestion from AI_M. Moreover, when I tried to explain things, I see that interlocutor doesn't try to understand, what I talk about. Either because of obstinacy, or becuase of mental abilities. Moreover, I notice rudeness in the manner of conducting dialogue. In such cases I cease conversation.
To the topic. I have some ideas about changing repulsive pick to be more realistic, but I won't announce them, since I don't see point in discussing it with people who lack good manners.
Last edited by Overlord2 on Thu Jun 04, 2009 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Valprax
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Postby Valprax » Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:57 pm

Ai mania

"go play some multiplayer" :>

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Ai_Mania
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Postby Ai_Mania » Thu Jun 04, 2009 9:36 pm

Omg, Irakly is pissed: it’s rare to see him like that towards people which are interested in his Mod.
Either because of obstinacy, or becuase of mental abilities. Moreover, I notice rudeness in the manner of conducting dialogue. In such cases I cease conversation.
To the topic. I have some ideas about changing repulsive pick to be more realistic, but I won't announce them, since I don't see point in discussing it with people who lack good manners.
Yes, I shouldn't be normal around people I don't know. Some might happen to have an unhealthy dose of seriousness and take everything I say literally. By the way, I only "got it" about negatives' /positives' artificial values when you took your time to say :
When you spend 2 points of your positives on +20 attack, you spend 10% of your total picks. You're left 18 points for something useful for economy. If you spend even more points for military or other things, you'll be left even less points. There is always alternative cost of your choice, which will bite you severely if you made wrong decisions in resource allocation. For instance you take +20 attack means you lack rich hw. Or you take warlord means you lack +1 prod and etc. The result will tell on your population later. Less population equals less production, less RPs/per turn and eventually lost game.
At the same time the negative value is fixed. From the point of view of positive picks it doesn't matter how you acquire negative 10 unless you take something mutually exclusive. How to measure the appropriate value of the negative? You compare this negative with other ones and see the difference. From that point of view the repulsive pick doesn't reflect its real impact. But it works as a supplier of free points to allow better races. Just that. What if I lower repulsive to 2 points as you advised? Everybody will switch to new lesser evil pick set with current layout.
What will change from the game point of view? Many possible races will be cut because of forced negatives as there will be more mutually exclusive picks. This approach sucks. That’s why I don’t do so
not before.

Nevertheless, it is obvious to someone on the outside that big negative costs don't fit into the minus ten, so -8 for low g or growth may have only made things worse in the presence of repulsive, as everyone wants repusive and will fit it with defense / combat / new spying penalties. You also sometimes try to make positives fit into existing success recipies, sometimes neglecting their real value. Otherwise new possibilities may show themselves.

-8 lg could fit with -2 repulsive. -8 pop could fit with -2 repulsive. Instead of sacrificing defense or even combat. To think of it, you could give repulsive -1 and fit it with -1 ground combat, to be fair.

But I'm wasting my time and your nerves. If you look over it, you did evidence some useful facts but otherwise kept saying that I don't know anything and my opinions / arguments are delusional, without speaking in a rude mannner. I hardly find anything more genuinely rude than that, but I'm used to that kind of people and never take it personally.

To sum it up, single player is a lot better with your mod than it was before. I think you even managed to improve the AI. Have fun !
"Humanity is revealed in the games you play and how you play."

Astax
Posts:82
Joined:Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:19 pm

Postby Astax » Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:36 am

ok i think -50% growth would go with -10 picks, and you have to launch with something like picks=12. Feudal picks=14. Now can you make a race around either one of these? I am gonna try :/

14 pick: Feudal, +2 Research, +50% Growth, Subterranean, Lithovore, Rich HW (Basically you have -16.66% Research at start with this race. You are not repulsive, you have no -10 combat or -20 ship defense, and your ships are cheaper to build)

12 pick: Aqua Dem Creative +2 research -50%growth.
I started in system with 1 Ocean (HW) , Huge rich Taundra, 1 Medium Taundra, 1 Medium rich Taundra, and a Medium Terran lol. So yeah i think this test will not go fairly. I may even settle in my starting system!

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Overlord2
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Postby Overlord2 » Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:30 am

Yes, I shouldn't be normal around people I don't know.
So you lack good manners.
But I'm wasting my time and your nerves. If you look over it, you did evidence some useful facts but otherwise kept saying that I don't know anything and my opinions / arguments are delusional, without speaking in a rude manner.
I just don't like to say directly that someone's approach is fundamentally wrong and ideas are wrong number. Instead I try to explain how the things are indeed. Btw, you never answered my question, how you measure the picks, what you're basing on. You just draw your numbers out from the air. I said that simple mathematics approach is non-applicable here, I also said how you should approach the problem of repulsive, but you still continue to spam those numbers. Of course you can play any pick lay-out, but it will have got nothing to do with the balance.
Some might happen to have an unhealthy dose of seriousness and take everything I say literally
Ok, you tell me what I should have answered when you say:
There's two things I still find important:

- -6 to negative attack is wrong because the opponent can pick plus two thereby gaining the same edge for 2 points instead of your six; the cost for minus attack should be the same as for the bonus and twice for the double bonus
"the opponent can pick plus two"? What do you mean?
The -attack and + attack picks are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. The only way you could try to compensate it (only partially) is to get warlord. But it won't prevent your oponent enjoy taking full +50 Beam attack bonus, thereby getting edge over you...

PS. I guess I understand what you want to ask - why +20 BA costs 2 points and -20BA 6 points... Answer: the attack bonus is vital because of its connection with initiative. Being worse in beam attack means losing initiative, which means a lot in MP games. Thus -attack minus is serious handicap, which can decide outcome of the games. And why exactly -6? Could be -4 as it was once, but the difference isn't significant. If it was -2 then no one in clear mind would ever take it, heh.
You still didn't "get it": you are willing to cheat your way through false pick costs.
1. you take the penalty but opponent does not
2. you don't take penalty but opponent takes the basic bonus

-> in both 1 and 2 there is the same difference in attack power and for all fairness and reason in both cases there should be the same DIFFERENCE difference DiFfErEnCe in points IN POINTS iN pOiNTs between the two.
And when I say:
if it cost 2 points for taking this minus, noone would take it since there are alternatives with the same cost, but less impact.
You say:
This is ridiculous, what is so hard to understand?!
-for wanting to get extra 2 points you pick minus attack.

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Ai_Mania
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Postby Ai_Mania » Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:35 am

if it cost 2 points for taking this minus, noone would take it since there are alternatives with the same cost, but less impact.
You say:
This is ridiculous, what is so hard to understand?!
-for wanting to get extra 2 points you pick minus attack.
Wrong quote (partial and out of context) to prove something. You show that you only see what you want to see and I had to rewrite the same thing three times:
And this is ridiculous, what is so hard to understand?!
-for wanting to get extra 2 points you pick minus attack. you are supposedly minus 20 attack versus someone who did not
-for not wanting to risk attack you don't pick. say your opponent does, +2, and he gets exactly the same edge over you; you are, again, two points ahead of him
it's the difference of initiative caused by the attack, too, in case you decide to split notions again (fourth time I say this, maybe 5th, 6th....)

Somewhere after the third rephrasal you took the time to explain that you were fitting points of positives to standard builds and negative costs are intentionally exaggerated, because otherwise it would "ruin balance or make for crappy race designs"

What did I base costs on? Comparison to other costs, my belief in their effectiveness, etc. What else?
"Humanity is revealed in the games you play and how you play."


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