ICE 16

Information, How-to's, and discussion about mod'ing Master of Orion II.
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Rocco
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Re: ICE Mod 10l

Postby Rocco » Tue Aug 18, 2015 5:23 pm

I'm starting to think you enjoy boosting ship attack just to see my reaction! Hahah. Next patch it will be +75 ship attack for all, you watch.

hahah glad you can see the humour still in all of this...

it's really nothing you needed to fuss over, adding scanners to the vessel and thus feeling a need to change it's placement in the tech tree as well.

I wanted to have the battle scanner away from Holo Sim. field, which was the start. Considered moving back to classic tachyon field, but I never liked it there in the first place. Also considered reducing it from +50 to +25 bonus, but then it would also influence the balance from +75 computer onwards. Making it PW its a free for all. Effectively we went from +50 Elec to +25 Elec and +50 BS at game start. It means offcourse that beams tend to hit better the target, which I see as an advantage in the early game if beams have an actual use. Also I would dig up an old & tried argument that BS +50 is so important but a.i. can miss the tech because they have no clue and that human player will always try to get it (unless in case how I previously placed it with Holo Sim. it is actually a huge advantage for Uni and even more so in strategic as you pointed out because Dauntless is not used there.)

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Dukinson
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Re: ICE Mod 10l

Postby Dukinson » Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:33 pm

Rocco wrote:I would say this is the main side; you said it already - playing with so many restrictions to create a somewhat challenging game. Now you have a real restriction of range. Well I thought it was fun change at least.... Can only hope others see it too.


Would you say strategic is tougher than tactical? Ofcourse you would agree it is, especially if you try playing Icecoldx. It's brutal. You can't do that missile ship nonsense everyone loves doing so much in strategic mode. In tactical, you get extended fuel tank scouts, cheap ones. Two elements that made this mode so much easier than strategic. The harder mode, strategic, you do not get extended fuel tank scout frigates. You've taken that difficulty yet further by stripping away tacticals only affordable long range scout, the outpost ship. It's a huge change to gameplay in early game scouting. It's harder, sure, but in a frustrating "I can't see where I'm going" sort of way. You can't even retreat this scout like you can the frigate version, if an outpost ships encounters something, poof, it's gone. Losing a 200 production vessel is a significant loss. It used to be 100 and even that was a significant loss very early game. Fuel cells were already great picks, but now I absolutely must pick deuterium and Iridium fuel cells. It's like the other technologies in those field don't exist now.
Last edited by Dukinson on Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
A cob of corn in every pot, an outpost ship with fuel tanks in every garage, and two command points for every colony!

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Darza
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Re: ICE Mod 10l

Postby Darza » Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:53 pm

Dukinson wrote: Fuel cells were already great picks, but now I absolutely must pick deuterium and Iridium fuel cells. It's like the other technologies in those field don't exist now.

That was always the case with Deuterium. And surely it can go same way with Iridium etc under proper environment.

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Dukinson
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Re: ICE Mod 10l

Postby Dukinson » Wed Aug 19, 2015 12:56 am

Darza wrote:That was always the case with Deuterium. And surely it can go same way with Iridium etc under proper environment.


Not true. We are talking about Icemod, not vanilla. Standard and Deuterium are 4 and 6 respectively. Or, 6 and 8 for extended fuel tank range. If I could reach enough systems in my empires "embryonic" stage with standard cells, I would get tritanium to turtle up my empire while I grow in rich lands. If those starting land were poor, I would need the fuel cells to prevent the cessation of growth. Iridium cells really aren't that far away.

Ultimately, even with Icemod it's unwise in strategic as now the only ship in my possession with extended fuel range are colony ships. Which is strange logically. Why can't my scientists figure out how to put fuel tanks on outpost ships but can put them on frigates and almost every other ship on tactical mode!? One day they'll figure it out. My best men will tirelessly work to put fuel tanks on outpost ships.
A cob of corn in every pot, an outpost ship with fuel tanks in every garage, and two command points for every colony!

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Darza
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Re: ICE Mod 10l

Postby Darza » Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:19 am

Dukinson wrote:Not true. We are talking about Icemod, not vanilla. Standard and Deuterium are 4 and 6 respectively. Or, 6 and 8 for extended fuel tank range. If I could reach enough systems in my empires "embryonic" stage with standard cells, I would get tritanium to turtle up my empire while I grow in rich lands. If those starting land were poor, I would need the fuel cells to prevent the cessation of growth. Iridium cells really aren't that far away.

Its about mapgenerator and techtree mostly. Ice have a very close to vanilla mapgenerator and techtree. It could be really different if some huge changes was applied to them (say, all star distances become exactly 1 parsec, basic engine is 1 parsec\turn, and the next engine of 2 par\t is 50000 rp, while all the other techtree remain the same, in this case fuel tech value would be quite low, compared to vanilla; while if average distance will be, say 12 parsecs, the fuel, what is able to cover that jump would be a early target for research). As you're about extended tanks - its Tactical then (as Strategic have some other combat rules, and Tritanium could be a viable tech there (possibly), most likely its not a case there too), and there is no point in "tritanuim for turtle up" at all. On a "rich lands" you would get a Zort when needed, and will have no problem to survive till it. Armor is not so important in tactical, by the moment it start to matter - you already can have Zort or Neut. While, simply due to the nature of mapgenerator, Deut is enough to do a jumps for a fleet, as 6 parsec is a standard max distance between 2 neighbor stars here, while Huge also can have 7, still covered by an extended. So, in reality if you miss Deut - you would need to take some other fuel later in a game (except small, maybe), and they come for a much bigger price in terms of their alternatives. While Trit is doing literally nothing in comparison, and very soon become obsolete with Zort etc. There are some excludes from this, surely, but they do matter only if you take that basics into account (and it was non-clearly from your initial message).
Ah yes, and its 9 for extended Deut, typo i think.
Dukinson wrote:My best men will tirelessly work to put fuel tanks on outpost ships.

Thats a something not you'd expect to see from someone, claiming to not using outposts. Maybe i got you wrong the previous time.
Last edited by Darza on Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Rocco
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Re: ICE Mod 10l

Postby Rocco » Wed Aug 19, 2015 3:44 am

Would you say tactical is tougher than strategic? Ofcourse you would agree it is, especially if you try playing Icecoldx. It's brutal. You can't do that missile ship nonsense everyone loves doing so much in strategic mode. In tactical, you get extended fuel tank scouts, cheap ones. Two elements that made this mode so much easier than strategic. The harder mode, strategic,

You probably meant: Would you say strategic is tougher than tactical?

Not true. We are talking about Icemod, not vanilla. Standard and Deuterium are 4 and 6 respectively.

Also, the values are no different from classic.

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Overlord2
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Re: ICE Mod 10l

Postby Overlord2 » Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:59 am

Removing extended fuel tanks from outposts was very bad idea: 1) It kills blitz, 2) it kills economy, since there are cases when you are forced to built OP early to settle worthy planet; 3) it kills huge maps completely. You know, if you are so afraid of abusing blitz vs Ai, it is better to work with Ai somewhat different way to improve its chances.

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Dukinson
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Re: ICE Mod 10l

Postby Dukinson » Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:30 pm

Rocco wrote:
Would you say tactical is tougher than strategic? Ofcourse you would agree it is, especially if you try playing Icecoldx. It's brutal. You can't do that missile ship nonsense everyone loves doing so much in strategic mode. In tactical, you get extended fuel tank scouts, cheap ones. Two elements that made this mode so much easier than strategic. The harder mode, strategic,

You probably meant: Would you say strategic is tougher than tactical?

Not true. We are talking about Icemod, not vanilla. Standard and Deuterium are 4 and 6 respectively.

Also, the values are no different from classic.


Ya I did mix those up.

Fuel cells, ya you're right. I could of sworn they were 3 and 5. I'm so out of my mind from losing outpost ships, I'm imagining I have longer fuel range to compensate. heheh.
A cob of corn in every pot, an outpost ship with fuel tanks in every garage, and two command points for every colony!

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Darza
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Re: ICE Mod 10l

Postby Darza » Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:51 pm

Dukinson wrote: I could of sworn they were 3 and 5

With 3 parsecs - player wouldnt be able to navigate with non-extended tanked ships at start at all in 95% of cases on a "non-broken map" (large or huge size).

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Dukinson
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Re: ICE Mod 10l

Postby Dukinson » Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:57 pm

Most games I did end up with deuterium, but there were some where I have 3-4 good systems within range 3-5 in a tight group. In those games I would get tritanium and be unassailable early on while I turned that tight pack of systems into a strong starting empire. I didn't need the fuel cells because by the time I was ready to expand, I had iridium.
A cob of corn in every pot, an outpost ship with fuel tanks in every garage, and two command points for every colony!

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Darza
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Re: ICE Mod 10l

Postby Darza » Wed Aug 19, 2015 2:05 pm

Dukinson wrote:Most games I did end up with deuterium, but there were some where I have 3-4 good systems within range 3-5 in a tight group. In those games I would get tritanium and be unassailable early on while I turned that tight pack of systems into a strong starting empire. I didn't need the fuel cells because by the time I was ready to expand, I had iridium.


Well, with "broken maps" you even could get a clusters of tight-packed stars of 1-2 parsec range, with a larger gaps between them. Such maps are change the regular fuel balance, obviously, and even could make Iridium preferred under some circumstances (some clusters could even have a >9 parsecs gap, making them simply unassailable by Deut. Thats an example of "exclude".). And if you take Iridium - you get no atmos, or pulson then. No atmos is ok if you're tolerant, and tolerant indeed can have a development way including Tritanuim, building a fleet, and upgrading to Iridium for a final jumps during the fly of already departed fleet, as fuel doesnt need refit. But that have absolutely no connection with "ready to expand", its about "ready to kill and finish the game". You dont need Trit to expand, you just take a Deut, what is generally an end-game fuel tech on a way to a polproc, while doing initial development. Not because you need that Deut at the moment, but because you need the later techs there, and then, after that - you already have a fuel researched.

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Dukinson
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Re: ICE Mod 10l

Postby Dukinson » Wed Aug 19, 2015 2:48 pm

If you spend more energy attacking and defeating a nearby empire, rather than expand into territory you have within range, it is certainly possible to end up in a worse circumstance of empire size. I've done it before. Rather I can expand into that fertile soil and steamrole that neighbor a bit later. I'm not sure I really fall in line with you rush bunnies. Remember, I play strategic. It's just not that easy to kill someone early on. You can't just send your first cruiser packed with missiles and wipe someone out in strategic.

Ofcourse you can do well without atmospherics, some poorer planets I don't even build them when I do get them! Pulson missiles are nice too, it just depends on my circumstances.

My good man, Darza, you speak in such absolutes. "There IS no your way, only MY way". Pretty soon I'm going to side with Overlord about you but I would take it further. You won't just need help or a psychologist, but rather a panel of psychologists. Watching you, analyzing you in a padded room behind one way mirrors. Printing out your comments and publishing them in medical journals. You'll be quite famous.
A cob of corn in every pot, an outpost ship with fuel tanks in every garage, and two command points for every colony!

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Darza
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Re: ICE Mod 10l

Postby Darza » Wed Aug 19, 2015 3:07 pm

Dukinson wrote:If you spend more energy attacking and defeating a nearby empire, rather than expand into territory you have within range, it is certainly possible to end up in a worse circumstance of empire size. I've done it before. Rather I can expand into that fertile soil and steamrole that neighbor a bit later. I'm not sure I really fall in line with you rush bunnies. Remember, I play strategic. It's just not that easy to kill someone early on. You can't just send your first cruiser packed with missiles and wipe someone out in strategic.

You are constantly jumping between the modes in your messages, what can i do. Clarify it in case you think its important. Problem here is that have no difference at all in this certain question. Forget about bltizing, as in that case there is no talk about such fancy late techs at all, even Icemod could be done with 0RP spend in a whole game on a huge impossible on Average tech, while Rocco fixed it alittle recently. We're about race development the way you stated you like.

Dukinson wrote:Ofcourse you can do well without atmospherics, some poorer planets I don't even build them when I do get them! Pulson missiles are nice too, it just depends on my circumstances.

You can do well with basic nukes only, and? Or some another cheap version of fleet for strategic. Of course AI is so weak, what player can rip it apart, while playing sub-optimal, or even very suboptimal. But there is no point of discussion then. "Hey, i play this way, i know its wrong, but i play it!". There could be some point in discussing what its wrong, but poster already tell what he know it. So what left? "Wow, man, you're so cool, you know you playing it wrong, but you still play it that way, so courage!"?

Dukinson wrote:My good man, Darza, you speak in such absolutes. "There IS no your way, only MY way". Pretty soon I'm going to side with Overlord about you but I would take it further. You won't just need help or a psychologist, but rather a panel of psychologists. Watching you, analyzing you in a padded room behind one way mirrors. Printing out your comments and publishing them in medical journals. You'll be quite famous.

Look, i just probably mistook you for a some new player, who is interested in game, and in learning it, as some of your early questions fitted the pattern. In case you're actually not interested in it, and prefer to act as some arrogant ignorant clown, bloated with own delusions of grandeur, like Overlord - feel free. Im not against to spend some of my free time, especially while on vacations to help to somebody, who wish that help, and eligible for, but of course i have many other much better stuff than chatting with a clowns, who are not interesting in game, but just want to brag about themselves. So yes, go ask Overlord or Cybersaber to teach you some, as they are far above the basic level, and knows some tricks, that could be helpful for you still, so you wouldnt waste your time entirely, but will use it with some surplus still.

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Dukinson
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Re: ICE Mod 10l

Postby Dukinson » Wed Aug 19, 2015 4:10 pm

Hey Rocco, I was playing around with ship defense picks. Recall if you will mentioning it comes along with missile defense, but I'm getting less than I thought. You were saying +50 ship defense should come with +50 missile defense. When I boot up a game with those defense picks, I only get half missile defense. I was pretty sure you didn't get the full 50. Was that what you meant or should I be getting more with the mod?
A cob of corn in every pot, an outpost ship with fuel tanks in every garage, and two command points for every colony!

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Dukinson
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Re: ICE Mod 10l

Postby Dukinson » Wed Aug 19, 2015 4:22 pm

Darza wrote:You are constantly jumping between the modes in your messages, what can i do. Clarify it in case you think its important.


So you couldn't tell I prefer strategic mode huh? What was I thinking? I should have mentioned it. You could only otherwise infer it from just about every post I've made. Maybe you didn't read them. Be careful with such statements as they may show you merely post... but do not read. (I admit it. I copied and pasted that, but not before correcting the grammer)

Hahah relax Darza! I'm just having a bit of fun with you. You're so angry. Try to care less. I bet every fragile object in your home is shattered. And your dog... for god sakes stop punching your dog! What did he ever do to you?!
A cob of corn in every pot, an outpost ship with fuel tanks in every garage, and two command points for every colony!


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