ICE 24

Information, How-to's, and discussion about mod'ing Master of Orion II.
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Darza
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Re: ICE Mod 10l

Postby Darza » Mon Aug 17, 2015 2:36 pm

For blitz Uni tele transd is better than fuedal tele transd;
I think that Feud P+2 should be a faster Blitz than UNI from Avg tech start, as it can build the first CA and Outpost Ships faster.
Right, as with all the other stuff i mentioned there. After small talk in IRC i decided to drop the explanations of them here, as they are obvious for ones who actually played them, and not needed for ones, who prefer to live in own's fantasy inner world.
For MP, if a certain race design is too weak, it will simply never be played, unless you both agree on some restrictions or until the balance is adjusted, as continuously happens with VDC.
Thats incorrect, tbh. The reason to play weak race in MP is the same as for playing them in SP. Just for some races - its quite hard to find an opponent, who would also enjoy the game, while AI doesnt care, thats the only difference. For example i almost never played MP with a real race, while almost never played with deliberate anti-race aswell, as i think its unfair for a opponent, unless we had agreement pre-game. While, if one doesnt care about opponent at all - he can play anything in MP too, no difference at all then.

And actually i was talking about something completely different, try to re-read.

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Re: ICE Mod 10k

Postby Dukinson » Mon Aug 17, 2015 3:00 pm

Not that i got much from the message, to be fair. First of all - its about strategic or what? As the combat have very different rules there, affecting named traits. In tactical is quite easy to defend from non-ECCM missiles with jammers, and also possible to make a race utilizing a +defence to jam nearly all missiles even in case they are ECCM + some scanners. But its for fun only, for a sake of doing it.
Either i got you wrong, or you indeed totally mishandle the concept of missile evasion, it have nothing to do with beam defence (is about the "200 defence", in case its indeed actual 200 missile evasion - it means missiles are in deep trouble, actually). Some immobile ship can have a 100% jam chance of incoming missiles, and some ultra-fast heavy-BD ship would take every warhead, in case it wouldnt have any jamming capability. Those a 2 different mechanics. Lightning is very good, but due to way it works it almost never can fully defend you on its own only, exept a case the incoming objects are in a forms of stacks of 1 object. So, if you have only Lightning as a defence, then stack of 2 EMGs would be guaranteed hit after the shields be gone, as 1 of them would surely find its target.

Of course combat picks have a use in game, even +defence, or even possibly in theory - warlord. Usually its +attack as it one that bring not only better chance to hit, but also initiative. The way of TransD belonging to the post remain mystery for me (and there is no TransD vs +50 def stuff at all, its like +0.5BC vs +10 Spy or so).
I was talking mostly of strategic but I somewhat speak of tactical as well. I suppose if you're playing some human using a missile strategy things could be different, but the computer isn't that way. They tend to have rather simple missile configurations and I don't bother focusing on missile defense as it would sacrifice too much killing power. In tactical, I just use point defenses as they seem a better deal. Each battleship or titan has enough where they can work together to remove enemy missiles. If I played +ship defense and placed fancy ecms on my ships, they will be weaker and fewer. I don't find this the best strategic against the AI at the very least. I have a hard time seeing this as a viable multiplayer game, just takes too long. And if you did play it multi, strategic seems the way to go as finishing a game in a session seems plausible.

I've played with ship combat modifer picks and I do worse everytime. The only exception was warlord as the energy I would normally spend on star bases early on can be applied to research and production. I go on a warlord rant in a different forum with rocco and same with the transdimensional vs ship defense as they are both 8 picks so I compare them. Maybe I should have reposted some of that post here so it wouldn't be comfusing but the jist of it is that trans seems superior for 8 picks and when I get evo mutation, I always get it. They are comparable because both add to the combat effectiveness of a fleet. Saying it's like +bc or +spying, just not quite accurate.

So, Darza, do you actually play races that start with ship combat modifiers? I would be interested to see what that race is.
Last edited by Dukinson on Mon Aug 17, 2015 3:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: ICE Mod 10k

Postby Dukinson » Mon Aug 17, 2015 3:14 pm

Looked at the mod again. I believe in v. 10k the only race playable is unification. Moral techs are placed so that puts any non-uni race at great disadvantage. Exception is creative, which could be viable, but it's too costly, so unplayable either.
I disagree greatly with this statement. As Rocco said, to say "playable" as if it was the only feasible race is a little extreme. I happened to mention the very same about uni and moral techs to rocco some time ago in a different forum. He's aware and likely working on it. Uni was increased in price, it's great and I still think it's the best but I had a lot of success with this race:

Dictatorship
+2 food
+2 Production
+20 Spying
Subterranean
Large Homeworld
-LowG
-Repulsive

Not better than my best uni race but if I had a democracy nearby, I was sitting pretty and late game could have greater production bonuses than a uni race with much more command points.
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Re: ICE Mod 10l

Postby Darza » Mon Aug 17, 2015 3:18 pm

.
Ship defence is not only about missiles as it, as missiles are usually require a way of dealing with them some other way, as its more reliable. But SD is helping versus other some other weapons aswell, and you cannot just shoot them down. But problem is what due to the turn-based nature of game, to move first is very important value, so more regular way is improving BA, so you will move first, and also get an improvement in what you're doing same time at one cost.

Warlord is generally weak pick, but all is gone to its value, actually, as with another picks. It never do harm, only good, just it could be very cost-ineffective, thats all. As in vanilla or Ice, for examples. If you really using it the way you describe it - to get some eco effect early game - its essentially wrong playing though. It means you're using very sub-par eco pick of very small effect for a high price (especially given the fact it was weakened (!?) in Ice).

Of course i have no idea what you talked about in past, but there is little sense to compare Transd, being the best pick in a whole game with some fun +Def pick, what is used only in a combat. You can also compare them with +Ground the same way if you want, as its also used in combat.

Im not sure i got the question. I could play with any race with ship combat modifiers, just most of those races would be sub-par in comparison to many other races under the same rules in efficiency, thats all. If you meant Transd as such modifier - then almost any effective anti-AI race should have it, though, and no, definitely not from mutation, as there is no point in such late techs in a game under such settings.
Last edited by Darza on Mon Aug 17, 2015 3:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: ICE Mod 10k

Postby Darza » Mon Aug 17, 2015 3:25 pm

Dictatorship
+2 food
+2 Production
+20 Spying
Subterranean
Large Homeworld
-LowG
-Repulsive
Not better than my best uni race but if I had a democracy nearby, I was sitting pretty and late game could have greater production bonuses than a uni race with much more command points.
Thats truly awful race. You need to realize one easy thing - you should always win vs AI with your build. Not, "have some successes", the sheer ineffectiveness of the race in example, together with the fact its still win AI - just show it one more time. And Overlord was talking about slightly different stuff, "unplayable" not in a sense "it cannot beat AI", but in terms of "weak performance level". The fact it should beat an AI is just given, and not worthy even to talk about.

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Re: ICE Mod 10l

Postby Dukinson » Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:28 pm

A new patch, bravo Rocco. Very interesting changes. I will begin play testing soon.
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Re: ICE Mod 10l

Postby Dukinson » Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:01 am

.
Ship defence is not only about missiles as it, as missiles are usually require a way of dealing with them some other way, as its more reliable. But SD is helping versus other some other weapons aswell, and you cannot just shoot them down. But problem is what due to the turn-based nature of game, to move first is very important value, so more regular way is improving BA, so you will move first, and also get an improvement in what you're doing same time at one cost.

Warlord is generally weak pick, but all is gone to its value, actually, as with another picks. It never do harm, only good, just it could be very cost-ineffective, thats all. As in vanilla or Ice, for examples. If you really using it the way you describe it - to get some eco effect early game - its essentially wrong playing though. It means you're using very sub-par eco pick of very small effect for a high price (especially given the fact it was weakened (!?) in Ice).

Of course i have no idea what you talked about in past, but there is little sense to compare Transd, being the best pick in a whole game with some fun +Def pick, what is used only in a combat. You can also compare them with +Ground the same way if you want, as its also used in combat.

Im not sure i got the question. I could play with any race with ship combat modifiers, just most of those races would be sub-par in comparison to many other races under the same rules in efficiency, thats all. If you meant Transd as such modifier - then almost any effective anti-AI race should have it, though, and no, definitely not from mutation, as there is no point in such late techs in a game under such settings.
Ooh Darza. I can already tell I'm going to have fun with you. I think I get the general thrust of your comments but a few sentences are a bit rough to extrapolate. Shall I assume english isn't your first language? It's ok, I'll just read your statements carefully.

Let's go in order. Firstly, how dare you quote my periods. My periods are very precious to me.

About ship defense: Some of this conversation is at http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthrea ... 52&page=12. It's understandable that some of what I say is lacking explanation. My early comments are mostly for Rocco but I'm happy to entertain conversation with any moo2 fan. I'm shifting to using this forum from now on and why I continued it here. I was arguing the strengths of transdimensional vs +50 ship defense and he rightly pointed out I had not mentioned that it also goes for missile defense. I went on to defend my position despite that fact here.

About warlord: My warlord ability is about as precious as my periods, so tread lightly sir! I don't use it now but it's my hopes my Rocco will re-grant the 2 command point ability some day. I never said this was an economic pick primarily. However, it does have an economic element that isn't obvious to some immediately. I primarily use it for larger more well trained fleets. The way I achieve some economic gains from an otherwise militaristic pick is the neglecting of star base construction for considerable periods of time. Star bases are crucial for non warlord races who need those command points to build any sort of reasonable fleet early game. I just ignore them unless it's a linchpin colony that needs that starbase for defense. I loved this aspect of Warlord.

About trans-d vs +50 def: It's not as cut and dry as comparing +25 ship defense vs +50 ship defense. Clearly one number is bigger than the other. I know this can take some imagination, and sure, maybe some of us lack this imagination to make a comparison that connects between trans-d and +50 def. I'll help you out and explain it better with a scenario. Let's say it's late game and I get Evolutionary Mutation. I have 8 picks now. I want my fleet to become more effective at destroying my enemies. I know I want +50 def or trans-d but I'm not sure which one so I think about it. If I select Transdimensional, I will get 20 beam defense and 4 more combat speed which will make them more evasive. Also, I will have 2 more warp speed to outmaneuver enemy fleets and choose the battles I want to fight more often. I will more often outnumber enemy defense fleets and be more likely to intercept their attacking fleets with my entire battlegroup. This is an absolutely massive advantage. Well what about the +50 defense? This will offer me an additional 30 beam defense and 50 missile defense over Trans-d for the same amount of picks, but my fleet will be slower. I will be more likely to encounter the full force of a defense fleet when I assault my enemy systems and they will be more likely to evade some or even all of my defense fleet should they attack. I'll essentially be engaging the enemy with fewer more elite ships, but not elite enough to be better than Trans-d in my book. That's why it's a reasonable comparison where, obviously, comparing either vs ground combat would not be. Early game you can make a better argument for ship defense and that's why I asked you if you would play with ship combat modifiers, I wasn't sure if you were defending them. My argument to Rocco is that ship combat picks aren't good enough, no one uses them even though he made them a better deal. It would appear we actually agree here Draza. This is why I used Trans-d as a comparison, it was simply a way to compare and diagnose the weakness of ship combat picks. Rocco did make a great change in his new patch and this might alter some of my opinions on the matter.

About my Dictator race: To say this is a playable race is not nothing coming from me. Here are the rules I play by:
-Automatic declaration of war on all encountered races
-No diplomacy or suing for peace
-No deployment of outpost ships into outposts allowed
-No use of planetary construction
-No assimilation of enemy colonists
-No utilization of worm holes as attack routes (I turn them off but no need in icecold)
You didn't know I played under such rules so it's another understandable misunderstanding. If a race I playtest can even survive under these rules AND Roccos mod, they pass a certain litmus test to me. No I don't think this is the best race, I stated as much. It's just a decent Dictatorship race, which is hard to roll with. You use descriptives like "truly awful" or sheer ineffectiveness", but these are over the top criticisms. I do agree unification as well as Democracy are stronger, but this race and a couple variants of it do rather well and great late game. So when one says "unplayable" or even "weak performance", I still say those are strong words either way. Perhaps your statements might ring more true in an intense multiplayer battle between two experts where every turn and racial pick are crucial, but I believe the majority of us play vs the AI and don't always want the play one race over and over again just because it performs a bit better than the others. It's impossible to balance this game perfectly, but Rocco is getting closer I believe and there are many "playable" fun races now. More than there were in vanilla for sure.
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Re: ICE Mod 10l

Postby Darza » Tue Aug 18, 2015 12:42 am

.
My English is truly awful, but i hope it still readable, yes. Most people do succeed in decyphing it, giving me that hope. You can always point me to a statements with blurry wording, and ill try to rephrase them.

If you think there is somewhat still left to read beside that lengthy explanation of what +Def and Transd are doing on that link - you could post it here, or in PM, ill look. Doubt it worth it, as looks like there is nothing new though. In short - they are quite different picks in effect, and you generally have an idea, what Transd is better (its have a real economic value, beside the sheer combat superiority it offer). You just tend to miss what you can use both, in case +Def would be cheap. And then it come to availablity and effectivness of sure-hit weapons in a certain environment. As it could lead to some very effective race with early undestructible ships.

About warlord. Goal of economic race is, well, economics. Not scrapping some BC maintenance by utilizing starbases. Well, actually that too, as starbase is cheap. You just buld them everywhere, economic race have no problem to do it. And also it have enough of production to tax it into fleet when needed. Thats why i sayd its totally wrong if you trying to use Warlord as an early eco boost. Warlord is something you can mutate into later, when effect would be immediately huge, and also would improve your fleet combat values. While early, and its a common problem with all similar traits - they are doing nothing (when no battles are occuring yet), so your race develop slower, compared to race, what used the picks for some economy traits.

About ship combat traits - this game is already favour blitzing. Thats the nature of turn-based, with little reaction time for a defender. The more desirable you will make the combat stuff - the even more blitzing it will be about, as now defender would have to defend from a blitzer with combat stuff. And if you will take the blitz aside, and play economy - you will never take them at all, untill they would be some insanely cheap (with Transd and HG as some excludes, as they are eco traits too), as your race will be simply worse that way. So you can get them only from Mutation, and its very end tech, so not very important. You dont like +Def - dont take it, like it - take it. If it would be one point cheaper, and you would have to throw that point away - you will be happy?

About your rules - thats good what you do not communicate with AI, and very good you're not using outposts. But the only races what do care about interfering with AI in this game are Blitz races, while your is definitely not one of them. Moreother, as your is some sort of spy race - actually its rely on interfering with AI somewhat. But again, you describe what you playing it "developing alone, not exploiting AI for a profit". Thats essentially how non-Blitz races are measuring (Blitz ones are measured by how effectively they can exploit AI). How they are perform alone. And your race is truly awful in it. Its not even nearly to be a worst possible or something, but its very weak in output. Its slow. It means what your race would achieve in turn X some relative value Y (sum of your production, research, fleet power), while other races would achieve it on turn X-Z, and on your turn X - they would have much more. Try to see it that way: youre on a car themed forum, and people discuss cars there. Ferrari, Lamborgini, Rolls-Royces etc. And you jump to explain to them, what Hyinday Accie is the same as they are, as it could overtake a pedestrian aswell, just as they can. Thats correct, and thats obvious, but while the fact what they all are faster than pedestrian, and also can carry a more weight than he can - make them equal only in that unimportant benchmark, thats all, while actual talk is going about something different. Im using that "expressions" to help you drop a pink glasses, and use a time to learn a game, its not so long and hard, instead of bragging about beating AI on impossible. As its some hard point for many players, as they see no need to improve "hey, im almost always win AI, and its Impossible!!1". Thats just a basic skill level, actually. You know the basics already, so have less to learn, thats it. If you care, sure. Reversely, your way to use AI to learn - is to play weaker and weaker races, while keeping winning with them. And vanilla had many "playable fun races" aswell, thats for sure.

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Re: ICE Mod 10l

Postby Dukinson » Tue Aug 18, 2015 3:11 pm

What happened to battlescanners, Rocco? That was certainly an active technology in strategic.

Psionics. Haha wow this is 650 now but I think I know why you did this. It's to battle the effectiveness of unification right? Interesting.

Outposts. As you certainly remember I went into length about them. I like how they have battlescanners. Removing fuel tanks will certainly prevent players from leap frogging quickly across the galaxy. I know tactical has priority but this does hurt their use in strategic. I really think replacing the outpost ship with an extended range scout ship would be more what you want in both modes of play. A template of one of your fighter sized ships with no weapons and fuel tanks similar to the 2 you start with in tactical. Would that be tough to code? If I see a star 6 parsecs away I want to reach in the beginning, the computer will beat me to it. I can't risk a colony ship encountering a space monster but it's the only thing that reaches. It's a devastating loss early. I've considered just saving and reloading to get around this problem. This does make things more challenging on the flip side.
Last edited by Dukinson on Tue Aug 18, 2015 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ICE Mod 10l

Postby Rocco » Tue Aug 18, 2015 3:37 pm

Yup that's correct! Though I see the Psionics research cost as 1200 RP (150+400+650).
What happened to battlescanners, Rocco? That was certainly an active technology in strategic.
Well, they are still there. It's a PW tech now at Electronic Compu.

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Re: ICE Mod 10l

Postby Dukinson » Tue Aug 18, 2015 3:53 pm

Yup that's correct! Though I see the Psionics research cost as 1200 RP (150+400+650).
What happened to battlescanners, Rocco? That was certainly an active technology in strategic.
Well, they are still there. It's a PW tech now at Electronic Compu.
Oooh jesus. Hahah. There it is on all my ships. I didn't even notice. That means everyone playing non prewarp will have it. Goodness. I'm speechless right now. We'll have to talk about this later mister!
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Re: ICE Mod 10l

Postby Rocco » Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:01 pm

Outposts. I like how they have battlescanners. Removing fuel tanks will certainly prevent players from leap frogging quickly across the galaxy. I know tactical has priority but this does hurt their use in strategic.
I have made this change considering strategic as well. I have been pondering the reason that dev's removed extended tanks from the strategic mode to create this different game dynamic, but probably they had to keep the tanks in outposts as it needed to be in tactical and programming them to be differently for both modes was too much work or whatever .. I can only guess. In any case I think it is fitting even more so for strategic than for tactical considering the overall absence of ext tanks. Not having the outpost as a scout can lead to -taking more risks with CS and/or -making fuel cells of higher importance. But as Deuterium was already favoured over trit armor the impact is still limited.
A template of one of your fighter sized ships with no weapons and fuel tanks similar to the 2 you start with in tactical. Would that be tough to code?

I do not know how to code this or if it is even possible.
I can't risk a colony ship encountering a space monster but it's the only thing that reaches. It's a devastating loss early.
It is time to let go of the old ways, Luke. Use the force.
I've considered just saving and reloading to get around this problem.
I never do this when playing an actual game, it just makes a game dull
This does make things more challenging on the flip side.
I would say this is the main side; you said it already - playing with so many restrictions to create a somewhat challenging game. Now you have a real restriction of range. Well I thought it was fun change at least.... Can only hope others see it too.

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Re: ICE Mod 10l

Postby Rocco » Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:07 pm

That means everyone playing non prewarp will have it. Goodness. I'm speechless right now. We'll have to talk about this later mister!

It creates (a) an improved level playing field and (b) beams gain some strength against the early dominant nukes + (c) could now have BS on OP without creating strange situation that you have them in Outpost, without having the actual tech otherwise.

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Re: ICE Mod 10l

Postby Dukinson » Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:31 pm

I have made this change considering strategic as well. I have been pondering the reason that dev's removed extended tanks from the strategic mode to create this different game dynamic, but probably they had to keep the tanks in outposts as it needed to be in tactical and programming them to be differently for both modes was too much work or whatever .. I can only guess. In any case I think it is fitting even more so for strategic than for tactical considering the overall absence of ext tanks. Not having the outpost as a scout can lead to -taking more risks with CS and/or -making fuel cells of higher importance. But as Deuterium was already favoured over trit armor the impact is still limited.
I would say this is the main side; you said it already - playing with so many restrictions to create a somewhat challenging game. Now you have a real restriction of range. Well I thought it was fun change at least.... Can only hope others see it too.[/quote]

I can tell you exactly why they removed extended fuel tanks from strategic. If you had it, it would be autoequiped on all warships at no cost of space! It would completely trivialize fuel cells. You would have to wait until some new module knocked it off your new ship templates. Ofcourse the old timer ships would still have them, it would be a complete mess. Ofcourse they had to keep in on colony ships and outposts, otherwise you can easily get boxed in with a bad start with nothing in range to colonize. The standard fuel cells used to be 3 and 5 for Deuterium, it's not much. It's also bad for computer challenge as they themselves would have difficulty expanding when they aren't always smart about it in the first place.

About reloading, I don't fancy reloading and cheating. I've been playing this mod without using outposts ships but perhaps now I will dissolve one of my rules and begin deploying outpost ships into outpost.

About justifying early battlescanners on outposts but not having the tech: Design should be more about balance than realism but this is how I would justify it if it were on outposts but nothing else. When computers were first invented, they took up entire rooms. We invented them, but not in the sense that they were available to everyone. The battlescanner on outpost ships could take up the majority of the ship before you've invented a streamlined version of the technology, and thus unfeasible to be outfitted on warships. You could look at it that way.

That aside, an outpost ship without fuel tanks and a battlescanner, I'm not sure it's quite as useful as a listening post and my not be justifiable to be created or left undeployed for that purpose. It can't be placed in a distant empty system near an enemy empire as early detection like it was useful before in vanilla strategic. Tactical it couldn't even be used like that in vanilla because mods didn't get slapped on your noncombat vessels, hah. Infact, there's no reason to build an outpost ship with battlescanners when you can just build a much cheaper fighter with the scanner and the same fuel range and same command point cost. I like that you took that suggestion but I worry that in conjunction with the removal of fuel tanks it's really nothing you needed to fuss over, adding scanners to the vessel and thus feeling a need to change it's placement in the tech tree as well. I still think current outpost ships are an improvement over the last version, I will say.
Last edited by Dukinson on Tue Aug 18, 2015 5:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: ICE Mod 10l

Postby Dukinson » Tue Aug 18, 2015 4:46 pm

That means everyone playing non prewarp will have it. Goodness. I'm speechless right now. We'll have to talk about this later mister!

It creates (a) an improved level playing field and (b) beams gain some strength against the early dominant nukes + (c) could now have BS on OP without creating strange situation that you have them in Outpost, without having the actual tech otherwise.
Why not just increase the size of missiles? If missiles are the problem, why not focus on their design? In strategic, missiles aren't a problem because you cannot make missile ships, but this computer attack handout really impacts strategic heavily, as well as tactical, trivializing ship attack picks and computer technology. Increasing the size of missiles won't impact strategic as size means nothing(where it wasn't a problem and thus never a need to address the problem), it would target tactical where it is a problem. Perfect solution. Increase missile cost and/or size.

I was happy when I noticed computers were restored, but now I know there rather than starting with +25 attack... we all start with +50! Ofcourse in tactical you must spend the space of the ship to do so, but in strategic it's all for free my good man. I'm starting to think you enjoy boosting ship attack just to see my reaction! Hahah. Next patch it will be +75 ship attack for all, you watch.
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