Colony spamming and terraforming

Information, How-to's, and discussion about mod'ing Master of Orion II.
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Februarius
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Colony spamming and terraforming

Postby Februarius » Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:28 pm

Recently I'm playing Armada 2526 Supernova, the only new space TBS that got my attention after MOO2 (is this a sad world or am I just to picky :?:) The game realy has sam interesting concepts, one of them, not colonizable systems/planets, well at least not until you discover some late techs.

Couple of days ago I was on the game forums and I accidentaly stumbled across a mod with MOO2 races. I started playing it and again fell in that MOO2 trap. I just needed my MOO2 fix again. Last night I started my new MOO2 session again only to realize that one of the biggest flaws of MOO2 was colony spamming, and cheap terraforming. Sooner or later you end up with 20 gaia planets. This is the thing that always annoyed me in some way, space should be a little more inhospitable place.

After playing Armada I started to think is it possible to somehow introduce this game mechanic in to the MOO2? Only thing that comes to my mind is to increase number of toxic/gas giant planets in galaxy generation (but even them can be colonized) or to reduce the number of planets itself. Is there some tool to make galaxy more harsh enviroment (without using game option for mineral abundant-it isn't that much effective)?

Another point, terraforming and making artificial planets out of asteroids and gas giants, again colony and gaia spamm! Terraforming sholud be something hard to achive, requiring tremendous amounts of resources, time and energy. Can this be corrected somehow? What would happen if those twos production points would increase? Can it be done, and how would it affect the AI and the game balance?

I would like to read some of your comments about this, or anything related. I am interested what others think about this subject, any other ideas are also welcome. Also would appriciate any help from modders on how to implement this ideas.

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Darza
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Re: Colony spamming and terraforming

Postby Darza » Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:19 pm

Both "colony spamming" and terraforming are extremally pricey in moo2, and dont needed at all in general. If you count them as balance flaw in a sence they are too powerful - then you simply do something wrong, and need to pay more attention in perfecting your game. Or next time you can also complain about imbalancing stellars and mirv zeons, not presenting in other games, or so.

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Februarius
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Re: Colony spamming and terraforming

Postby Februarius » Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:35 pm

I can't see how having 20 gaia planets is doing something wrong. And don't remember terraforming being that much pricey in my games. Maybe you are talking from a multiplayer point of view. I don't have exp with MP, or perhaps you are thinking about small galaxy size games. I am talking about long epic games on biggest galaxy size. Also I dont look at this only through strategy point, but also through role playing point. Not everything in game, including moding shold be connected to beating it. Is it wrong to want to play galaxy setting with more harsh enviroment, with less planets to colonize, with harder expansion, thus making every good planet more valuable.

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Darza
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Re: Colony spamming and terraforming

Postby Darza » Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:54 pm

You simply dont get a basic idea - to win this game you need exactly one starting planet. Thus having 20 gaias is actually indeed doing something wrong, if your goal is to win a game. If your goal a roleplaying - then there is absolutely no need to complain about stuff, you just can decide not to use terraforming, or not win before you have your 20 gaias, or anything you like. The problem what if you add a role-playing - you cant rely on a modder, who supposedly should knew all your fantasies in advance and mod a game according to it. But you can learn to mod by yourself, its pretty easy. Right now, long, epic game at huge from prewarp 7 AI's will end after 100 turns, if played right, without terraforming involved, obviously. It present in this game, but its not needed if you play right, as plasma torpedoes, they present too, and not needed too. But you can add a rule what you should use them, if you see any fun in it. But right now game works exactly as you want, the stuff you intially complained is severely overcosted and not needed already. Quality of planets in moo2 already so low what economical expansion is a bad strategy, if you drop the planet's quality even more lower, it wouldnt change anything at all.

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Februarius
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Re: Colony spamming and terraforming

Postby Februarius » Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:21 pm

I admit I am not the best player of MOO2 but also not the worst. I see your points, but again not all players finish game in 100 turns. I had a lots of games going well above that number and I enjoyed them much. Also I never wanted or asked someone to make my fantasies into mods. I already moded game for my own personal taste several times, introducing progressive growth of tech RP-s for e.g. Little mod that tremendously improved gameplay for me. I like playing my games slow, concentrating on research, diplomacy and development, but also respect if that isn't someone's cup of tea. Also there is no reason for that tone in your posts, even if you disagree or my ideas are totally flawed.

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Darza
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Re: Colony spamming and terraforming

Postby Darza » Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:45 pm

Oprosti druze, kriv je moj engleski. No offence was intended at all. All i was trying to do is point you into get what the problem you complain about is close to complain "Orion guardian is too weak, compared to TheEndlessHorrorMonsterTM in game XYZ, few doomstars with stellars just kill it, game is boring and easy". While its actually true, but most probably such complaint came from someone who didnt knew what aforementioned weak guardian could be killed much more easy way, so, while problem is actually indeed present, it is in absolutely other place, and complier could learn some new aspects of it by spending some of his precious time, instead of blaming stellars. Same here, if you dont want to play good, you always can play the fun way.

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Februarius
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Re: Colony spamming and terraforming

Postby Februarius » Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:15 pm

Hahaha ovo je predobro! Pozdrav i tebi! :lol:

Again I see your points and by reading your posts I see that you are much more experienced MOO2 player than me. I don't mind someone to know more than me and I admit I am not an expert player, but again I am not a total noob. I am playing this game from my childhood and probably will be comming back to playing it for all of my life. Maybe my ideas don't make to much sense to someone how knows much more about game mechanics, but again I have my way of playing it, and would like to improve that experiance as much as I can. That said even if your points are correct, they don't help me in any way! As regarding comparing MOO2 with other games, don't see much problem in that. Most of them copy MOO2 itself, but that doesn't mean that games don't have some good concepts, or that MOO2 is a flawless game.

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Darza
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Re: Colony spamming and terraforming

Postby Darza » Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:59 pm

Yes, sadly this game is only about experience (knowledge). The more you play, the more you know, generally. And there is indeed no help could be done as far as i can get, you can just play it the way you like till you get bored with it, and will try to play it some other way. And in this process you will realize the thing im initially posted. Also i never called you "noob" or meant you are, cant get from what it started. All i did is just pointed on one small error, nothing more. Learning process is trials and errors anyway. Ah yes, and moo2 is a real beehive of flaws btw. Still truly great game tho. Bok, sretno.

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Overlord2
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Re: Colony spamming and terraforming

Postby Overlord2 » Wed Sep 25, 2013 6:16 am

The main complaint of Darza about the game is that the tech tree, cost of buildings and poor AI tactics allows to abuse blitz game. You start with telepathic skill, produce one battleship (or cruiser) and easily capture everyone else...so all the rest development becomes pointless. And "good players" according to Darza are supposed to know it. From this point derives all his discourse about the game.

About the main topic of the thread, yes its possible to make pop capacity low and scarce. The best way to do so is to ban subterranean, tolerant and aquatic picks. Terraforming in original is already costly - each subsequent terraforming increases by 250 BC. Also use original mapgen, which produces scarce maps. If you follow these rules you will get what you were looking for.

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Darza
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Re: Colony spamming and terraforming

Postby Darza » Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:22 am

Overlord2 wrote:And "good players" according to Darza are supposed to know it. From this point derives all his discourse about the game.


Of course, you should show what you already get a basic idea so i can continue. Unless you will - there is no point to go further.

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Februarius
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Re: Colony spamming and terraforming

Postby Februarius » Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:05 am

Overlord2 wrote:The main complaint of Darza about the game is that the tech tree, cost of buildings and poor AI tactics allows to abuse blitz game. You start with telepathic skill, produce one battleship (or cruiser) and easily capture everyone else...so all the rest development becomes pointless. And "good players" according to Darza are supposed to know it. From this point derives all his discourse about the game.

About the main topic of the thread, yes its possible to make pop capacity low and scarce. The best way to do so is to ban subterranean, tolerant and aquatic picks. Terraforming in original is already costly - each subsequent terraforming increases by 250 BC. Also use original mapgen, which produces scarce maps. If you follow these rules you will get what you were looking for.


In that case I am a proud lousy player :) I don't like to exploit game mechanics, so I try not to know this things, in other words don't use my time to learn them. If that makes me a lousy player, so be it. The thing you mention about telephatic skill, I don't like it, so I don't use it, problem solved for me :) I don't play this game to beat the AI, well this at least is not the only reason. I play it for fun, my kind of fun. Not all of us like to power play even if we can.

Also could you please point me to ''original mapgen, which produces scarce maps''. And guide on how to impelment this. Tnx in advance.
Last edited by Februarius on Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Darza
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Re: Colony spamming and terraforming

Postby Darza » Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:36 am

Original mapgen with bad maps - is packed in vanilla moo2 game. Also dont let him spend his bad understandment of my words to you. Telepatic is just a tool you use for optimal game. It doesnt create it. You can skip telepatic, and play less optimal in terms of picks, but you still wouldnt need any terraforming to win, if you will plan to play right. You will just win more slowly than using telepatic, thats all. And all of this not making you "lousy player" of course, as long you can invent a rules to have a fun from a game - you're always fine.

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Overlord2
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Re: Colony spamming and terraforming

Postby Overlord2 » Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:08 pm

Februarius wrote:... could you please point me to ''original mapgen, which produces scarce maps''. And guide on how to impelment this. Tnx in advance.

Original mapgen is a default mapgen in 1.31 and 1.40. Additionally to it there were made mapmods with modified mapgen, which provides maps with more planets and more capacity.

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Februarius
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Re: Colony spamming and terraforming

Postby Februarius » Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:30 pm

One more info please. In one of the posts on forum I read that you can edit in game planet settings. What tool must I use for this? tnx

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Overlord2
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Re: Colony spamming and terraforming

Postby Overlord2 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:52 am

Februarius wrote:One more info please. In one of the posts on forum I read that you can edit in game planet settings. What tool must I use for this? tnx

If you want to modify exe, then ocl_improved, map generation section. However climate tables weren't added to the ocl_improved. You can only modify number of orbits per star, orbit type (planet, gas giant or asteroid) and map sizes.


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